I don't have as much RPG experience as you.

What I like is to specialize. So I don't like Runescape where you have to raise practically every skill to do the quests. And I don't like Bard's Tale where you have a whole group.

I like to produce something (crafting). That's good about Runescape.

I like MMO.

I don't like permadeath like in rogue-likes.

I hated the controls in one game from the Elder Scrolls series. Was it Morrowind? Or Oblivion? There was the same key responsible for talking and attacking...very bad!

Currently I don't play proprietary RPGs anymore. The money is one reason but not the main reason. It's just that I like the open source principle so much.

I don't like RPGs where the players insist on always being in-character that means always playing the role. I like to not take the role-playing too serious.

I like graphics. Don't need to be super-duper graphics, but I don't enjoy textonly-RPGs.

[Edit: I don't like too much action in relation to quests etc. Like jumping or too much fighting.]

Uhmm.. that was it. Sure there's more but i don't remember more.

Sorted in the order of my liking:

1.) My overall favorite RPG was Runescape because it has exciting quests, challenging monsters and interesting crafting. I also liked the 3D graphics (They are not the world's best graphics, but I don't mind.) The runecrafting was fun. too. The community is  good, too. The landscape is interesting, too.

I stopped playing it because there was to much long-distance-running involved. And the mentioned need to be a jack-of-all-trades to do the quests. Unfortunately they deleted my high-level character (after several years, so I think it's fair).

I occasionally payed for Runescape premium. Because of the premium quests. It's worth the money imho.

2.) I played a rather unknown MMORPG with the name "Nowhere else and beyond". The game's maker decided to completely delete his game (server, source code, everything), so it's gone. It was a browser game with 2D graphics and a cool community. You could create your own map and quests and items. And many more features...

3.)

a) I liked the graphics of Guild Wars 1 or 2 (I think it was 1, but not sure).

b) I liked the Elder Scrolls world, quests and graphics (both Morrowind and Oblivion).

c) I like the default campaign of Flare for its fighting and quest.

d) I like Stendhal, but the sheep feeding quest was boring so I lost interest. Maybe I should give it a try again.

e) I played Gothic 1. It didn't catch my enthusiasm. But it was not bad.

f) I played Dofus, but I got stuck after some not very long time.

4.) Despite being probably the most popular RPG I did NOT play World of Warcraft. NEVER.

Well, Flare starts looking good (graphics). Then you get into fights which aren't hard to win. That lets you keep on playing. Then the new contents like the quest and the maps lets you continue playing further. And soon you are in the middle of the game and have played a lot.

Only drawback for me is that in higher levels there's much fighting and not much questing. But hey, it's called "Free libre action RPG engine" so it's an Action RPG and other players like it exactly for that reason :)

I like RPG when you actually can play role so that game does not force you to do things in certain way. There should be multiple ways/methods to solve quests. For example Fallout 2 is good example in this. I think this is the most imporant thing in RPG. I hate quest like Skyrim and Oblivions where you have one single way to do the quest and it is usually killing somebody and getting item from them. Only option is to not to do the quest at all. But more interesting quest would be that item to get would be in safe. Player could of course kill the NPC who has it and then get item. But player should be able to persuade, buy it or steal it without killing the NPC. Or maybe even do another quest for the NPC and then gain that item as a reward. I understand these kind of quest require a lot of work from developping team and are there for much harder to do than simple kill and fetch quests.

I prefer single player game over multiplayer game. If game only has single character and no party then first person view is okay. Otherwise I would like to player from 3rd person or isometric view and turn base game.

RPG should have quite much dialog with choices and things to read, no need for voice acting, specially if it is bad voice acting. Crafting and grinding is one thing I don't usually like in RPG. If these are done well, crafting is okay. There should many different items and make your character unique with some special perks or traits to pick while gaining level or experience.

Party or single character is a bit tough choice. They both have their pros and cons. Single character from first person view can be very immersive. But characters in these games can get overpowerful compared to other characters in the game. Games with party you can usually have more complex builds and try out different things which is good thing. Also turn base combat can be more interesting with party.

I don't really like turn based RPG mechanics in a computer game. It works well in a a tabletop setting with other people, but I never thought it translated well to video games.

When I was a kid I hated turn based RPGs like the old Final Fantasy and Dragon Warrior/Quest games. When I got older and I played Dungeons and Dragons, I realized the concept is fine but without other people it falls flat IMO.

I actually like the simple fetch or kill quests in Skyrim type action rpgs.

When it comes to setting, I would like to see RPGs that have fantasy worlds that are inspired by non-European mythologies. So many RPGs take Tolkien's world as their model, which was heavily influenced by Germanic mythology. I would love to see a fantasy setting inspired by Meso-American mythology and artwork. Or a fantasy setting inspired by Australian Aborigine mythology and artwork. Or a fantasy setting inspired by West African mythology and artwork. Or a fantasy setting inspried by Mesopotamian mythology and artwork. Or spin a globe and pick a random spot on the map, research the indigenous culture and art style of the people who lived there historically, and use that as inspiration for your setting. I love Hobbits, Trolls, and Odin-esque Wizards. But I have had my fill of them.

If you are interested about Meso-American RPG, there is Worlds of Ultima: Savage Empire, Altough it is turn based and quite old. So UX is not up to modern standards. While playing I find it easier to play full on keyboard and not using the mouse, but learning that it takes time. Game actually has nice feature that each of tribes have their own currency, which is kind of cool. Some of them require blue feathers, some diamons and so on.

@WithinAmnesia: Oh, nice. Yes I agree with most of these points you've made.

Deep progression of player character via item tiers and different difficulty levels where a player can choose to skip content in areas to progress other areas deeply.

Interesting. I haven't played WoW myself, but I've looked into it some. How do item teirs facilitate a player's ability to skip content and/or progress to other areas?

yet it does not feel too childish nor pandering to a wider audience, yet contrived lack of mature themes... a mostly non-contrived world.

I don't disagree, but I'm not clear on how this stacks up to other games. What are some games that do pander or feel childish? What are contrived lack of mature themes? All fictional worlds are "contrived", but that's clearly not what is meant here. What are some examples of "contrived worlds" as a counterpoint?

What is "audio 'juice'" is that a specific type of music compilation?

What I like about the original Old School RuneScape [is] the deep progression system

Eh, I felt like the way OSRS did skill leveling was the worst part of the game. Don't get me wrong, I love OSRS, but I feel like skills that level up based on the usage of that skill promote very degenerate gameplay. Same for most of the Elder Scrolls games. I mean, baking a lot to improve baking skill is realistic, it just isn't very fun to me. I end up fishing for tons of shrimp that I never use, because the amount of shrimp I need to fish in order to level up vastly outstrips the amount of shrimp I would ever consume for the purpose of healing or nourishment... which is arguably the purpose of shrimp in OSRS. You always see rows upon rows of campfires as players grind to level up firestarting. They don't use all those fires, it's just metagaming to level up. I far prefer the games that give experience points for a variety of activities, but which skills you apply that XP to is up to the player, it's not determined by how they aquired the XP.

[regarding] Everquest... Want a map? Get wrecked go make one

Haha! There is something to be said for a gameplay experience that expects you to keep IRL notes. The old Dragon Quest games were like that, too; you'd get critical clues to the location of hidden treasure, but unless you have infallable recall, you need to write them down in order to put them all together later. It really enhances the feeling of discovery when the game refuses to do the discovering for you. On the other hand, it is easy to take that too far, which feels like the game is just missing features. What's wrong with an in-game journal? If I have to go hunt for a game wiki (entirely separate from- and not endorsed by- the game itself) just to find out the bare minimum info about an in-game item like "what is this" or "how do I use it", I'm going to be more annoyed that delighted. The game Don't Starve is guilty of this; the in-game item descriptions are punny, but useless. Googling the item just to discover it's basic function will inevitably lead you to spoilers as well. Ugh!

...The game is hard, slow and makes the thin butter spread of content go A lonnnng way, you get some player power you really feel like you earned it.

...Or you feel like the game is wasting your time to artificially inflate its playtime. I like games with lots of content, but EverQuest (and basically any pay-to-win game) is guilty of making some things unecessarily time-consuming without any real improvement to enjoyment, IMHO. Again, I love EverQuest and I agree with these points for the most part. I'm just pointing out the parts I think could use some enhancement.

"Mount and Blade Warband and Bannerlord: The combat is the best I have ever played in an R.P.G."

Why? I mean, I'm sure it is, but what makes it better than others? What is it about the combat that makes it great?

RE: Farming RPGs - "Women player base is quite substantial; that is rare in most R.P.G.s"

Is it rare? Hmm... RPGs as a genre in general have more women players than any other, it seems. Except may be puzzle games(?). Perhaps that's just my own bias talking; I love RPGs. A lot. Though I am also an engineer, so maybe I'm an outlier. The gender disparity among engineers is huge. That being said, I adore Stardew Valley. The relationships in Stardew Valley are fairly simple, but also plenty to explore with them. That's something I haven't seen done as well in any other game.

@Reemax: 

I hate quest like Skyrim and Oblivions where you have one single way to do the quest and it is usually killing somebody and getting item from them.

Weird... I always felt like Skyrim and Oblivion actually fixed this exact problem with traditional RPG quests. Admittedly, there are plenty of quests in those games with only one solution (I frigging hate the House Of Horrors quest for this!), but a huge number of them have multiple routes to a solution. In fact, the example you listed is used several times in both games: Instead of killing the target (the obvious solution) you can instead pick his pocket, or persuade him to just give you the McGuffin. I didn't realize these options were available (they're not listed or hinted at in most of the quest descriptions, so perhaps that is the bigger issue) and only discovered them on subsequent playthroughs when my other skills were sufficient; if you don't have enough skill in speechcraft, pickpocket, or telekinesis, the failure of those attempts seem like there just isn't an alternative solution.

I was especially delighted with one particular quest involving a vampire; Instead of killing him openly, I reverse-picked his pocket and left garlic in it. He immediately got sick and suspicious and ran off yelling.

@Minus Dungeon Games: 

"I hated turn based RPGs like the old Final Fantasy and Dragon Warrior/Quest games... without other people it falls flat IMO."

Interesting. I feel the opposite about this; other players make turnbased rpgs incredibly slow. When it's just me deciding what my fellas are going to do, I take my action, then the computer acts for the monsters nigh-instantly. With other people, you have to wait for that rules-lawyer at the table to look up the AoE on Fireball for the 4th time this encounter before he decides what he wants to do. I do love me some D&D, though. :P

ooh i like the jeweled eye. gives me kaballah-esque tree of life vibes, but looks totally different. seems like it could be used to differentiate schools of magic or worldy powers derived from divine concepts.

have you ever read roger zelazny's amber books? the pattern and the logrus and all that jive. zelazny is god.

@MedicineStorm:

Weird... I always felt like Skyrim and Oblivion actually fixed this exact problem with traditional RPG quests. Admittedly, there are plenty of quests in those games with only one solution (I frigging hate the House Of Horrors quest for this!), but a huge number of them have multiple routes to a solution. In fact, the example you listed is used several times in both games: Instead of killing the target (the obvious solution) you can instead pick his pocket, or persuade him to just give you the McGuffin. I didn't realize these options were available (they're not listed or hinted at in most of the quest descriptions, so perhaps that is the bigger issue) and only discovered them on subsequent playthroughs when my other skills were sufficient; if you don't have enough skill in speechcraft, pickpocket, or telekinesis, the failure of those attempts seem like there just isn't an alternative solution.

I usually don't play as rogue or thief so that pick pocket I would not have spotted. Instead I play usually character with high speech or persuade so I should have been able to spot that. One thing I found funny in Skyrim was that most of the dungeons were loops. There was hidden door at the end of the dungeon so player did not need to walk over whole dungeon when quest was done. This is mixed thing for me. It probably makes the game more player friendly but it shoots realism into knee. Oblivion dungeons player needed to walk back whole dungeon.

I totally agree with the end-of-dungeon loop conflict you have. They say it's "good game design" to not force the player to retraverse territory they've already gone over. I get it, but at the same time, it... destroys someting about the dungeon. It feels less forboding, less dangerous, when you can just hop down from the vault room and pop out to safety. Was that treasure vault really that secure all these centuries if any smuck with a ladder could have come in through the exit and avoided all the restless undead hellbent on keeping their sacred treasure safe?

That only works since there are no portable ladders, climbing skill or levitate/fly spell in Skyrim. :D It feels pretty stupid if you have played previous Elder scroll with both climbing skill and levitate spells, but mentioning the ladder makes it even worse.

The Nords have still not invented the ladder. And the Dwemer created vast underground cities with steampunk tech but never invented the ladder either.

1. RE: item tiers and player's skipping content - That is a robust answer. Thanks! 
2. RE: pandering & contrived - ah, pandering to sexualized content. Yes, ok... however, you lost me about halfway through the paragraph here. What does the historical rape and torture have to do with pandering or "contrived worlds"?
3. EDIT RE: Audio Juice - Ah, got it. Yes, I agree with those assessments.
4. EDIT RE: Mount & blade - Indeed, a video is worth ~1,000,000 words. That certainly shows some fantastic combat. However, I am unable to feel the controls or tactics involved just from the video. Based on appearances alone, the technical aspects of combat in M&B is approximated by the combat in, say, Skyrim. I know that it isn't, but I still can't tell what sets M&B's combat apart from Skyrim's or The Witcher... Unless the answer is "massive battles involving tons of characters". Certainly impressive, but I'm still only playing one of those characters, right? If M&B always involves commanding armies of characters, then the combat is more like an RTS than an RPG, yes?
5. RE: rare to see women playing RPGs - I have to disagree on this one. More than a third of all players are women, specifically for High Fantasy MMOs like WoW? Yes that is a disparity to the male players, but hardly 'rare', and certainly not "incredibly so". It is actually a reverse disparity when looking at the subgenre we were originally talking about: the family/farming simulator (like Stardew Valley) player base is nearly seventy percent women. I guess I'm not much of an outlier after all. :P

Thank you for providing the detailed content. I am very much enjoying this discussion. :)

I disagree to what people say about Skyrim, I played it a lot and modded it too, it's one of the most primitive and cheap games in the history of game industry. I can remake Skyrim clone in Unity in few days, if we don't take into account voice acting and visuals. This game is a perfect example of what happened to game industry after businessmen completely replaced game designers and artists. This game is just one huge pile of fake and illusion that looks cool and feels epic, while in reality it's more primitive than very first computer RPGs ever made.

It's basically just a courier boy simulator, the whole game has only 3 quests:

1) Go there, kill that thing.

2) Go there, grab that thing and return it.

3) Go there, talk to that guy, he'll either give quest #1, #2, #3 or end the chain.

That's it. Even main quest simply consists of these simple unrelated "quests". Faction quests are also just a chain of primitive errand tasks. This game is so generic, that you simply can't make it even more generic.

In order to create Skyrim clone on any free game engine you simply need:

1) Generate few hundreds or thousands quests like I mentioned above.

2) Now let those quests generate NPCs and targets, including dungeons.

3) Now generate some cities and shuffle ~80% of those NPCs across those cities, the rest will be in wilderness or dungeons. Most targets will be in dungeons, some in cities.

4) Generate the most idiotic and primitive loot system where most numbers are taken randomly from the sky and make no sense (because if you do everything balanced, then it won't be a Skyrim clone).

5) Intentionally make terrain geometry very non-flat, designed for player character and not for NPCs to ensure that AI will constantly stuck, so it looks more like Skyrim. Also make sure you make pathfinding very unoptimized, so players will have low FPS when crowded areas, when all NPCs decide to move somewhere.

6) Every few N random minutes roll random number between 1 and 100, if rolls 1 - simulate crash to desktop.

7) Every time you load a cell, roll random number between 1 and 500, if rolls 1 - simulate freeze during loading screen. Oh yes, make everything use different textures and unoptimized models, and make open world really an open world (instead of simply using the same small area where you simply change terrain meshes and move everything, including distant land) like you're not a game dev and have absolutely no idea what you're doing to ensure that you ACTUALLY HAVE loading screens, because if you make your game normally - you won't have them and thus will be unable to simulate freezes.

8) Now spend 99.999% of your budget on advertisments, streamers' donations, attend some TV shows and bribe game critics. And buy some random game of the year award (there're a lot of them), basically all famous games are games of the year, even if they were released in the same year.

9) Now you just need to somehow do voice acting, models, animations, textures and put some generic boring dialogues. Although dialogues can be generated. For example every time you meed NPC-in-need they always start with words "Please, you must help me!". Seriously, I've heard it like 1000 times in many games. Generic peasants in villages will just randomly wander village, because all NPCs in RPGs suffer from alzheimer. They will wait until you talk to them, so they can send you on holy quest to retrieve their possession from random cave, which is inhabited by bandits who never leave and never actually rob anyone, they just live there and quest item was simply spawned there, so now you're forced to murderer those poor innocent generic NPCs, so you can return useless quest item to alzheimer-suffering-NPC who will give you useless generic reward and then continue wander village, because that's what he's doing whole his life. And if you don't complete this quest, then... er... nothing will change. Really. Now apply this to every quest in the game. As I said - it's easy! Just create some dialogue generator like "Oh noes! Evil <insert hostile NPC name in plural> stole my <insert random useless item>! It belonged to my <insert random relative>! Please, you must help me! Here I mark it on your GPS tracker, go there, murder them for no reason and give it back to me!" or "I'm <insert some random generic activity> whole day, can you please deliver <insert random useless item> to <insert name of generic NPC> in <insert name of the city (if other city)/buildings (if the same city)?>" It's doable and not hard, really. You only need to pay a lot of money to voice actors...

What? People ask money for THIS? You don't need to know how to code to make it yourself, it's the most primitive and simple features of any game. Plus, assets like that are usually (or may be always?) for general use. In other words aren't optimized, because their creator made it for non-specific project. And that's one of the reasons why games have loading screens/low FPS :D

Seriously, to move character using either physics or grid or I don't know - nodes (which is essentially a grid) - is a trivial task. Especially in Unity, with its documentation. Although I advise to not rely on tutorials or forums for the same exact reason - they're not optimized. For example if you google how to make square grid tile pathfinding on Unity, you may find a video, where some IT guy creates tons of classes and tons of functions and then yeah, it works! Except that it'll destroy your FPS, because using OOP in pathfinding or even in game development in general is a suicide. Ideally your game must be within single class using only locals and ptivate-statics. Try not to use "new" keyword to achieve what you need, unless it's in the very beginning (Awake). Try to create everything right after player launched the game. Then simply reuse that memory, this way you will never trigger GC and thus player will never experience lag spike. If you're using Unity's physics, then you must have no more than 1 FixedUpdate in the whole project. And no matter what you're using, you must have no more than 1 Update in the whole project.

But all of is possible only if you 100% know what you're doing from the very start till the end. Also it's mostly for one-man-projects, or 2nd+ person must have no relation to coding at all. In other words it's for 1-programmer team. Because 2 coders will have hard time working with 1 huge script, which is whole game. Unless they're twins who think the same and never code at the same time (or else there will be problems with syncing, as they will edit the same file).

yes those are the books i was referring to. you should read them.

@Reemax: "It feels pretty stupid if you have played previous Elder scroll with both climbing skill and levitate spells." Agreed, though I suppose there's always going to be breaks in verisimilitude in any game. For some reason I feel like this is something more than that, though. I can't quite put my finger on it. I guess if I trudged through dangerous and circuitous terrain over 40 miles to get to a restaurant that I liked, only to find that my route home was only 2 miles because of some one-way street... I would feel more cheated by the journey there than happy about the convenience of the return trip.

@Minus Dungon Games: "The Nords have still not invented the ladder. And the Dwemer created vast underground cities with steampunk tech but never invented the ladder either." I LOL'd!

@WithinAmnesia: I do agree there still is femenine-excluding tendency in game design, though it is certainly trending in the right direction. It is far less so than it used to be back when I first got into games (1980's). Even then, there was never a lack of female representation among the protagonists. Samus Aran of Metroid, Rydia of FF4. Celes, Terra, and Relm of FF6. Princess Peach Toadstool made a poor rolemodel, but so does Kratos now-a-days.

@Buttons: That is still an oversimplification of the core gameplay of Skyrim, but I do see your point. However, if you were to follow those instructions to create a skyrim clone with all those quests, all those interactive skills, and the (for the most part) moderately interesting dialogue, I would still love playing such a game (even with the hilarious built-in crash randomizer). Even if it were a text-based adventure in it's new form. Why is that? As much as I may agree with your assessment of Skyrim's primitive construction, why is it still fun to play? I guess you couldn't answer why I enjoy it if you do not. If you know of some games you think are like skyrim but less well marketed, let me know and I'll give them a try. I'm willing to bet I could either tell you why they fall short of the good things skyrim did, or I would enjoy those games at least as much. :)

EDIT: note that I am not a Skyrim Fangirl. I do think it has some major problems, both in design and construction. It is far from the best RPG I've played, I'm just saying I still enjoy playing it despite that.

there is this craptastic skyrim clone https://store.steampowered.com/app/253410/Ravensword_Shadowlands/ which was made in unity, and their design document probably looks like buttons' instructions for how to make crappy skyrim clone. and in my opinion it totally takes the punch out of buttons' argument.

yes you can clone skyrim's "primitive" systems. but it's not fun. skyrim is fun, for some of us anyways. is it a "real rpg"? i dunno. there are some who argue that anything except the 0e dnd from 1974 is not a true rpg.

so what makes an rpg an rpg? by strictest definition a role playing game would be a structured form of play  wherein one or more players take on the role of characters. but that is the way i played super mario bros in 1987 when i was barely out of diapers. i was mario in my head.

so is it skills and leveling up? equipment and hit points? is it an interactive story with impactful choices? is it elves and hobbits and odin-esque wizards?

in my opinion it's like obscenity. i'll know it when i see it.

and please dont waste your hard earned $7 on ravensword shadowlands. it is really bad.

oh and edit: i was thankful every time i finished a dungeon in skyrim and didn't have to trek back ghrough. immersion breaking and unrealistic as it is, i totally get why they did it. they did it specifically for ryan rodgers.

You enjoy playing Skyrim for the same reason I enjoyed it and, probably, everyone else - it's a medieval fantasy simulator in open world where you can freely choose your character's name, race, gender and appearance. Then you can freely move anywhere you want. What alternatives you have? There're like... no such games? And if person doesn't know (yet) how cheaply made this game is and that every mechanic is faked and doesn't really do/change anything, because the whole game is just a show (literally ALL players actions have literally ZERO consequences), then such person will even have a lot of fun playing it. Then there're mods that can completely change they way you're playing the game allowing you to prolong the time you spend on this game. Unfortunately there're zero mods that change the fact that your actions have zero consequences. Not even a single overhaul does it, but it's normal, because it'll be easier to create your own game, than to make such mod, lol.

By consequences I mean:

Imagine the village A, which is under attack by local bandits, who rob their food and women from time to time. Then you come into that village and they ask you to help. Then there's another village B, which is in good relations with those bandits (may be they're even relatives or same gang), and they want to control something from village A, so they don't need to rely on their "friends", because they want domination, and yet they can't do that openly, because it'll ruin their reputation with the rest of the world. You can either kill the bandits and make village A your friends and make village B somewhat mad at you and receive good global reputation, village A will now have better shops and may be even offer other services. Or you can persuade village A into cooperation with village B and have protection from bandits, making you "Bandit friend" which will make all local bandits neutral to you, you'll also have better services in village B, but you'll have bad global reputation. Or you can kill main guy of bandits in some challenge, if you meet the requirements (may be charisma or some background or even race), become their leader and then set your own rules - you can stop raiding village A or not, you can even start raiding village B or not, or use your own gang for other quests somewhere else. In other words you'll have strategic advantage now. Or you can simply say "screw you all" and ignore it and then after some in-game time a random thing will happen: village A may find good party of adventurers who killed the bandits or village B tired of pretending to be good guys and occupied village A and then other villages declared war on them to liberate it. Or bandits became very bold and independent, may be a new leader appeared, who is smarter and stronger, and now they raid both villages and even beyond, because nothing can stop them. And this is just examples I made up while typing this post, now put 100 things like that in a single world and you'll have RPG + strategy at the same time. Players will see that their actions (or lack of actions) actually have consequences. And, ironically, it's shouldn't be hard to do: simply make a slow paced real time 4X strategy for AI. Then make RPG for the player inside that 4X strategy. I mean, yes, of couse it's hard... but from "design" or "idea" point of view, it shouldn't be something impossible. People think it's very hard to make RPG where you live in truly dynamic world, but it's not - game devs already did it all, it's simply scattered among different game genres. RTS or 4X strategy will provide you with dynamic world, especially if you implement somewhat realistic economy, like in Settlers2, where lumberjacks cut down trees, then trees are made into planks, then masons cut stones and then builders use them to build structures, then hunters/fishers/farmers generate food for miners (but better for everyone), who in return gather metals/coal, which is used for tools/weapons/armors, etc. Now add player diplomacy like in Civilization, add player character like in Skyrim and here you go - perfect medieval fantasy simulator where literally every player's action actually has consequences, because the world is a sandbox.

this thread made me want to go play skyrim. at which point i found out that they updated it in november and even though i had it set in steam to NOT update steam had updated and downloaded in the background without me paying attention. so now all my skse mods are busted.

i guess i'll see how they updated vanilla.

and as an aside, another generic-ish skyrim clone that i do think is enjoyable is gedonia, also on steam. it looks like zelda windwaker aesthetically. it's a one-person dev made in unity. it is buggy as all get out, but enjoyable nonetheless. just like skyrim :p

@buttons:

There're like...no such games?

There are but I think they are all Elderscrolls. Each Elderscroll has their pros and cons. Skyrim is probably best looking and music is excellent there. It also has those epic dragon fights. Well they are epic until you get your hero superhero that can handle those easily. I think that's also another issue with Skyrim, that for example you join to Mage Guild with character who hasn't never cast a spell before doing the initial test. If I rememeber correctly those can be pass with starting magic spells. After one day doing quests for the Guild you find yourself as a Archmage, which feels so wrong.

For Oblivion it is pretty much same as Skyrim expect it does not look that good as vanilla. But it has pretty much same issues as Skyrim.

Morrowind main map is same big area, which allows spellcasters cast flying or leviate spells and fly over city walls and so on. I think Morrowind had some restrictions that not all characters could join all the guilds and some guilds had probably restrictions that if you are member of another you are not allowed to join. Morrowind as an area is very unique and some might not like the look of envinroment.

Then there is the Daggerfall. I think with this Bethesda really tried to make fantasy simulator. It has features that other Elderscrolls lack: For instance gold pieces are heavy in your pocket, you go to bank and change that for letter of credit. You can take loan for bank. You can even travel to far away land and take big loan there and run back to your home territory and never pay back your loan. You can buy a ship or house if you want to. Map is huge and travelling there really requires fast travel(How ever you can still walk or ride horse or cart to next town if you want to. It just takes a lot of time). It has skills like climbing. I really miss that this hasn't been in newer Elderscrolls. Daggerfall also has swimming skill and swimming in plate armor is almost certain for drowing and only way to get up is drop the something heavy. This Elderscroll is challenging. Surviving even from the first dungeon in really challence(Maybe even too much). But there are still some problems: Dungeons this is were Daggerfall went to so wrong. Developpers thought that players do like exploring maze like dungeons, but it gets very tiring to doing this like over and over just to get quests done. Quests are pretty much fetch something, kill something and so one there are couple of variants and some of them have few choices to make. Some quest are bad specially like fetch some mummy wrapping from Harpies nest and mummy wrapping from Alchemist Store is not suitable for doing the quest.

Since world is almost complete procedurally generated, quests are also random(not including the main quest) people in those towns are just random NPCs. But going for example City of Daggerfall where there are multiple shops, inns and thousands of people is still awesome and amazing. There is also Daggerfall Unity which is Daggerfall remake to Unity engine which fixes quite much of problems, like it allows to have smaller dungeons. Daggerfall Unity for example upgrades climbing and player can move sideways while climbing and swinging over the ledges.

Those dungeons have two sides. For example there can be a pit in dungeon. Player could find lever somewhere in dungeon(Finding this would probably require lots of fighting) which would lover the bridge over cap. Good character might be able jump or climp over the pit or use levitate or featherfall. I kind like that it really allows you play your character. But when you do this multiple times it gets tiresome.

I like the creative world of bastion but hate how you basicallly fight the same three enemies throughout the entire game. I have no idea how they managed to create that entire game and only put the same three enemies to fight in the whole game but there it is.

I liked the open world of oblivion and skyrim but hate how every dungeon is basically a cave and has no viariety or identity to it. I remember in one game I played the dungeon floor was all blue dragonscales. The walls shimmered and it was awespiring. You really felt you were some place dfifferent and new. This was not the case in oblivion or skyrim. The only variation in dungeons in those games is the path. I just dont understand why every dungeon has to be a textbook example of a "cave". diablo 3 created a whole game without a single generic cave in it.

dont just change the color of enemies and call them new enemies. this was done in the 80s to save resources and not fun to see in newer games where resources are not a problem.

seeing the same 4 textures used in 8 different dungeons is not immersive

lots of repetative empty space + trees and bushes is not interesting to look at..

my favorite rpg of all time is the original everquest. I played it for over 10 years and played it on day 1 release basically. While this game is pretty repetative I really liked the classes in it. I played a enchanter and I had a specific role in crowd control. When enemies were pulled to a location they had a tendency to multiply to huge numbers and it was the enchanters job to "sleep" the mobs so they could be killed one by one. It actually involved quit a bit of skill and every pull situation is different depending who is pulling the mobs to you and where you were. I loved that people in this game had jobs like healer and tankl and crowd control. I actually built a reputation of my character among other players as being good at my job. This made me strive to be my best and I loved the challenge of dealing with players who were err bad at thier job like tanks that couold not keep mobs off the damage dealers. since each player had a role and a living reputation of how well they played that role it really became fun and made you want to stay. The main improvement to this game I would have added is the weapon abiliitys that I believe it was Dark Age of Chamelot had. Your weapon attack had a postion such as front or side or back. if it was back and you hit from the back you had a chance to roll a attack bonus. It also had chained attacks. attacks that each had to succeed to get the bonus of the next attack. this pretty much prevented players from hitting attack key then going to sleep while the mobs slowly dies. they had to participate and choose which attack was next based on the effect they wanted and wether the previous attack succeeded.. some attacks from the side would cause the mobs to bleed. each weapon type was different and each effect bonus was different. some attacks required previous attacks like a previous attack from the side to succeed to do the next chain of the attack.

The nostalgia is strong with this one. Its sad to see all trhe old zones so dead in favor of all the new places to explore. Maybe one day if I ever get a gaming laptop I will try and play again. I think I Lost the magic for gaming.Its more fun for me to collect games than to actually play them. usually I fire them up and play fopr 5 minutes before quitting again. Its just as fun for me to watch someone else play on youtube than for me to play myself.

Well, eveything changes. You change. The game market does. (Similar experience with adventure games and with pen & paper RPGs.)

Some say Ultima Online was the best. That was before I got into MMORPGs so I don't know if that's true.

Some of my favorite RPGs would be:
Diablo 1+2
Fallout 1+2
Grim Dawn
Path of Exile
Titan Quest
Sacred Gold
NOX

I like dark hack 'n slash / actionRPGs, gore, blood, etc.
An Isometric view.
Procedural dungeons.
Large open worlds.
Lot's of varied items, unique and set items. (with adequate storage available)
The ability to improve one's items through sockets, ie. runes and gems.
Character skill and stat customization.
Unlocking higher difficulty settings on story completion.
Map progression that is exceedingly difficult, and thus requires a bit of a grind.
Random events / quests. Unpredictable barrels that may explode / spawn a skeleton.
Variety is the spice of life, the more unique a biome is the better.

I'm not big on pixelated or unnecessarily low resolution graphics, I really wish the Flare HD version will be completed one day!

This is a tough question to answer, as one has to consider the limitations of the Flare engine. To me, the Flare engine is an engine designed for artists to make games with, specifically old school low resolution RPG games.  Don't get me wrong, the Flare engine is an amazing project and much respect to those who have brought it to life, but it is designed for a limited purpose. So with that in mind, I would say that a game such as the Empyrean campaign, but with a greater diversity in biomes and monsters, more variety in skills and items, dual wielding, higher resolution graphics, and definitely a lot more difficult!
My perfect Flare game would be something very similar to Diablo 2, but with higher resolution graphics.

has anyone tried Hades. It looks like an interesting isometric dungeon game but maybe a little too zoomed out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-2b7GGWNz54

"The Empyrean campaign, but with a greater diversity in biomes and monsters, more variety in skills and items, dual wielding, higher resolution graphics, and definitely a lot more difficult!"

Could be done, but the quantity of work needed is way too much for anyone to do without getting any money out of it. While i check some of your points in my mod, the higher resolution upgrade would be humongeus work no sane person would want to tackle for free. It would also ruin the Diablo 1/2 charm (not denying a new style could be great).

The engine is also very poorly documented for any new modder setting the difficulty to very hard from the very start. From inserting a new model to setting up a new map is a hell of it´s own with little written info. So it´s not as friendly as you think for artists, it´s the opposite, a coder will get everything faster to work.

That said, it´s a good platform to get a "Diablesque" game started, stable, mature, with a helpful developer and FOSS.

This is my mod, you might want to have a look:

https://opengameart.org/forumtopic/heresy-a-flare-mod-first-act-released

Regarding Hades. Looks interesting. The visuals are gorgeous. Voice acting is decent too. I can't tell everything about it from the video, but it seems like more of an "action platformer with 3/4ths perspective" than what you'd call a traditional RPG. Not sure there is such a thing as "tradtional RPG", but my point is it seems to have some critical differences from the kind of RPGs discussed here so far (Diablo, Baldur's Gate, FLARE, etc.). Namely:

• Fast-paced: focus is on action, not tactics and creative problem-solving.
• No (apparent) equipment: sword doesn't change, clothing/armor doesn't change, no scrolls, potions, or other consumables to aid in the journey.
• No (apparent) abilities: clearly there are upgrades and technique advancements, but they seem to be either entirely passive or only activated via button combos (thus my "action platformer" statement), no activatable tactical abilities or spells on a hotbar. Not necessarily a bad thing, just something that sets it apart. However, it does make me think there is a hard limit on the amount of tactical combat choices available in this game. "Hmm... what should I do? sword strike? or dashing sword strike?"

The attack visuals are over-the-top. Not a bad thing, necessarily. The focus seems to be on the power-fantasy; flashy sword strikes and taking on giant ripped flame-beef-creatures weilding cudgels that are bigger than the PC. I like games like that sometimes, but I find myself gravitating more toward the RPGs where that kind of power isn't earned until later in the game. PC seems over powered from level 1 and doesn't seem like he's actually in danger. It does make sense in this context, though; he's a demi-god of some sort.

Has anyone here played Hades? I'm wondering if it's worth a try. 

they make hades for switch console I was thinking of trying.They have both hard copy and digital. I watched the video for over an hour and the difficulty definitely ramps up to almost bullet hell like levels where there is all sorts of things coming at you. there was a few sections that I thought it looked like they really were trying to kill you to make you start over. When you die you respawn at your hell home base. The dungeons are random to some degree every time if I understand correctly. It would be an interesting challenge to try and make a similar level in tiled though.

I cant decide if I want to try Hades or Battle Chasers Nightware. I like that battle chasers is turned based but at least for the switch version there seems to be some unpleasant loading times every battle compared to almost no loading times of hades.

I dont think there is any resolution restrictions in Flare other than someone to actually make the high resolution images. It would be a seriously large project to make all those high resolution assets. Perhaps too much for anyone to do for free. I have heard of Clnts wandercall project but myself havent seen any running version example of it if I google it or search youtube.