$12256 / $11500
I figured that we could make a list of the other RPGs we like besides FLARE, maybe this could be sort of a brainstorming session to get some ideas rolling.
So, without further ado, here's my personal list, by date of publication:
Moonstone: A Hard Day's Knight (1991)
It's suprisingly fun for a small-scale RPG. You wander around an open world, fighting monsters and getting treasures.
Quest for Glory 3: Wages of War (1992)
This one has a brilliant and well-executed concept: your adventure takes place in a fictional land inspired by Africa. There is a tribe called the Simbani, who dwell in the open plains and for whom cattle are the center of their life and culture. They are at war with a mysterious tribe called the Leopardmen, expert magic users who have stolen the Spear of Death. It's a fascinating concept, especially when you get to know both tribes better.
Veil of Darkness (1993)
This one is a serious precursor of the ARPG genre. Apparently, Diablo 1 borrowed heavily from it. It has a robust dialogue system and a lot of puzzle solving in addition to straight-forward combat.
Entomorph: Plague of the Darkfall (1995)
Another precursor of the ARPG genre. The story and setting are original and well-executed. Your adventure takes place in a world where humans use resources from giant bugs like spiders and beetles to create furniture and stuff in general.
Planescape: Torment (1999)
A work of art, quite literally. It could well be featured in an art gallery or a museum. The quality of the writing is beyond exceptional. The world itself is very original. If you're looking for a story-heavy RPG with lots of dialogue, then this is definately the one.
Diablo 2 (2000)
Not a huge fan of the first Diablo, but I really did like the second one. Great combat system, good graphics for its time, hours of fun fighting monsters and getting loot.
Icewind Dale (2000)
Planescape: Torment was very story-heavy, but the combat itself was a bit lacking. Icewind Dale went the other way: a minimun of story and dialogue, but very combat-oriented. I think it was a smart move from the makers of the Infinity Engine games to go about it this way: when you feel in the mood for story and dialogue, you have Planescape: Torment; when you're in the mood for combat, you turn to Icewind Dale.
Baldur's Gate 2: Shadows of Amn (2000)
This one is a perfect balance between story and combat, it combines the best aspects of Planescape: Torment and Icewind Dale. If you ask me which is my favorite game of all time, this one is probably it (Although PS: T is a close second, sometimes even first, depending on the day).
Despite their dates of publication, I discovered some of these games only a few years ago, for example Veil of Darkness and Quest for Glory 3, but after playing them I thought they were brilliant.
I know there's some cool games from the 80's, but they're not really my cup of tea, I'm more of a 90's retro fan.
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Good idea. I think Screenshots may be a good addition.
What is it you like about each of these games?
--Medicine StormThanks! I edited the first post accordingly. I found the screenshots on Google.
The ones you posted are more complex than Flare (except diablo), Flare is quite barebones rigth now but has the potential to expand, the games i have played and liked thru the years (and resemble Flare):
Nox: very action oriented, less about stats
Geneforce series: Could be rebuilt or someone get inspired from it with Flare. Rpg and strategy with a nice story and monster summoning/training/developing. Turn based but could go real time quite well.
Divine Divinity: a masterpiece of rpg, it lets you play it the way you want to.
Cool, I'll check those out, I didn't even know them.
One of the things that I like about the Infinity Engine games is how the loot system works. Monsters drop loot that makes sense for them to drop. For example, in Icewind Dale, when you kill a yeti, it doesn't drop gold or weapons, it only drops a yeti pelt, which you can sell or craft into a leather armor. When you kill a goblin archer, it always drops a bow and some arrows. I think it's a really cool system. Right now I'm working on a new mod for Flare (my previous mod was not very succesfull), and I think I'll make the loot system like that one.
@Danimal: can you explain what you mean about those games being more complex? Story-wise? Graphically? gameplay mechanics? I'm only just becoming familiar with some of the titles. In what way does Divine Divinity let you play the way you want to compared to other RPGs? Very interesting.
@M7600: Yeah, I always thought that made a lot more sense to have loot tables be more specific to what dropped it. Certainly not the only engine that does that, but definitely a plus for Infinity games. Though I wish the drops weren't quite so... consistent? When a kobold archer always drops a shortbow and 10-30 arrows, it creates a weird sort of loot-inflation where those items become nearly worthless to the player. When I play Baldur's gate, the land around High Hedge is constantly littered with halberds; every gnoll drops one, and they aren't even worth picking up. I'd rather they dropped nothing most of the time, but occasionally dropped a low-level weapon and maybe some fungible trinket.
--Medicine Storm@MedicineStorm: Yeah, I see your point. Hunting for cool loot can be really fun, it's one of the things that made the Diablo series so entertaining. I don't know, I'm kind of torn on this issue. I like both systems, but if I have to choose, I'll probably go with the IE style. It's true that the player is discouraged from profiting from standard items like halberds. I think that the developers discouraged farming in general, since the monsters usually don't respawn. I guess it all boils down to what kind of game mechanics you are in the mood for. Sometimes I just wanna hunt for cool loot, so I'll play Diablo 2, sometimes I wanna focus more on combat with a puzzle-solving mentality, so I'll go for an IE game. I think that FLARE can cater to both tastes. We'll see once I finish my new mod.
Agreed. I think having both is definitely possible. It's true that the economics play a major role it getting it to work right; having the shopkeepers pay such terrible returns on common items means players will only pick up the loot that is useful to them, and not because they want to loot-farm so they can sell it all. I think having loot tables still have logical ties to the mob dropping loot is good, but make them a bit more varied.
IE loot tables for Kobold archer (randomly selected):
After slaying a pack 12 kobolds, I end up with over 200 arrows. I have a party of rangers, but never use that many arrows. The game can supply a useful amount of arrows (and a bow, now and then) without diminishing the special-ness of loot. What I suggest:
The loot still makes sense for the enemy-type, but the enemy type is also low-level. Dropping no loot at all most of the time still makes sense. The same group of 12 kobolds will still yeild about 30 arrows, a bow, a shiny rock, and 2 fire arrows. More exciting (and useful) than 12 bows and 220 arrows. Ok, I'm done ranting about loot. I yield back the remainder of my text. :P
--Medicine StormCan you explain what you mean about those games being more complex? Story-wise? Graphically? gameplay mechanics? .
Well... actually all the above; Its hard to compare to a commercial game; story-wise they were made by pros or an amazing indie guy (Geneforge/Avernum) with complex storylines with branching endings, graphics are similar to Flare (thats the charm of Flare) but gameplay wise Flare is Diablo. Watch a video of Nox, its pretty fast action, i loved it at the time how hectic things could get; and all of them have deeper mechanics than Flare, be it more skills, character classes, companions, damage resistances, magic items... Flare Empyrean feels empty. But to my surprise the "default mod/alpha mod"?(cant remember the name) was a blast to play. It had summoning pets/minions, morphing into werewolves/werebear/ghost, a class free skill tree where you pick only the skills you like and many new ones appear later after some event (helping a druid teaches you werewolf form...). And all that its just forgotten in a corner instead of being built upon. Sometimes i also wonder why no one has rebuilt Diablo 1 using Flare...
Awhile ago i wrote some ideas at Flare github, you can have a look at it, maybe you will get some useful ideas:
https://github.com/flareteam/flare-game/issues/739
In what way does Divine Divinity let you play the way you want to compared to other RPGs?
My memory fails me, but i remember it plays almost like a Fallout, your stats determine if you are a speaker or an axe-weilding brute, so you can get peacefull resolutions most of the game, go for stealth or just hack and slash. The world building is great and funny; one time i was traveling the forest and found a gold coin, and another one... a trail of them leading to a totally non-overly suspicious bush, i went there for the kicks and a goblin party bursted out of it telling how dumb humans are, i killed them, but i could have talked my way out if i wanted.
Another time i was tasked with searching a magician tomb, there i found his servant skeletons ready to revive him as a lich, one of them started hitting on me to go for a drink and a roll on a bed later... after helping to revive it, the lich tells you how painful is to be an undead, regrets doing that to his servants, frees them and exorcise himself... The writing in this game is GOLD.
Man, those stories from Divine Divinity sound awesome, I'll try to check it out this month. I really believe that good writing can do a lot for a game. It doesn't have to take the form of a novel-length story. A few witty lines can make all the difference, like those stories you mentioned about the goblin ambush and the lich.
So, another thing I really like is that if the player has choices, then these must really be choices. I know that sounds redundant, so allow me to elaborate on that. Take for example the beginning of Baldur's Gate 2. When you talk to Minsc for the first time, you have the option of telling him to find his own way out of the dungeon. And when you talk to Jaheira, you have the option of leaving her in her cell. Personally, I have never abandonded them in the dungeon, I always make sure to rescue them. After we leave the dungeon, sure, I have no problem in telling them that we need to go own our separate ways, but leaving Jaheira in her cell seems really vile, even when I roll an evil character. The same goes for abandoning Minsc before leaving the dungeon. But my point is, even though I never actually leave these characters in their cells, I like it that the option exists, because then I feel that I have chosen to rescue them. If not, then I'm not really choosing anything, I'm just reading a lot of dialogue over which I have no influence. This is one of the main drawbacks of Icewind Dale: whatever you say more or less gives the same result. Sure, you can choose to be polite or rude to the NPCs, but it doesn't have the severe consequences that it has in Baldur's Gate 2, like actually loosing NPCs.
The conclusion would be that, from a game design perspective, players shouldn't be given the illusion of choice, they should be given actual choices which dramatically alter the events that unfold afterwards.
very interesting.
Rescuing jaheira has some obvious benefits (decent fighter, a few useful druidic spells) but not rescuing her has few, if any, drawbacks (you'd rather have some other character in your party instead?)
How would you feel as a player if rescuing her cost you something? Something minor perhaps, but still tangible to gameplay, just like how having her in your party has tangible gameplay benefits (potentially... not everyone likes Jaheira, but that's what makes it a real choice.) You can still go your separate ways once you're out of the dungeon, but you have to give up something to get her out. Perhaps you have to bribe the guard with a sizable share of your gold... or you have to sacrifice 3 max HP perminantly to break the magically bound cage or something.
Yes, leaving her in the cell is still vile, but now it isn't just vile for the sake of being vile. Now you may want to leave her there because you have other, more self-centered considerations... which I always thought was the only real difference between the evil and good aligned: the "good" aligned are more concerned with the well-being of others. "Evil" aligned are more concerned with their own well-being. >:]
--Medicine StormShe's a great tank and healer. While druids are not the best spellcasters in general, they do have one of the best spells in the game: Insect Plague, which shuts downs the abilities of enemy spellcasters.
The only case in which I could concievably leave her behind is if I created a party of six from scratch, an option that was implemented in the enhanced edition. But I've never done it, since I like the NPCs the game already has.
You're proposed solution about having to sacrifice something is interesting. I don't want to get into spoilers because some other people might not have played this, but there are a few moments in the game when you have to make some significant sacrifices, including stats.
It's true that rolling an evil character / party has no mechanical incentives. In fact, it's actually worse. Good and neutral players get discounts when buying items if their reputation is high. Evil characters dont have this option, since they will leave the party when their reputation starts to rise. They are happy when their reputation is very low, but this means that merchants will charge you an insane amount of money, and in some cases, they will even refuse to sell you anything. And whatever you try to sell them, they will insist on buying it dirt cheap, while good and neutral characters would make a wopping profit from selling the same items. As if this was not bad enough, when your reputation is low, you also get attacked on the street by groups of fanatics who think that evil must be destroyed. So there's really no reason to play evil characters other than roleplay. They do make up for it by being way more overpowered than good and neutral characters, but that always seemed like a clunky solution to me. I think that if a game gives you the option to play evil, there should be some substantial reason for doing do, like the option you mentioned about choosing not to sacrifice gold / stats.
Anyways, thanks!