@Vidmaster: OGA is about making ART for GAMES. We need to get programmers and artists collaborating, and in order to do that, we should involve programmers too. Having a game making contest is a great way to do that.
It's no secret that I'm a JRPG fan. The story is always a huge part of a JRPG, so I think it's safe to say that I prefer games with a fairly involved storyline. That being said, there are plenty of games I like with little or no story.
I don't consider having even what I would call a radical opinion to be part of a mob mentality. I certainly would not claim that if you're not in the middle ground, you're part of a mob. What I was getting at as far as standing up for the middle ground is the fact that most of the time, the middle ground tends to keep quiet. They shake their heads and facepalm or whatever and then go back about their business. There are plenty of very civil people on both sides of this debate, even the radical parts, and I don't consider them to be part of a mob either.
As for nutty people getting stuff done, I'm not entirely sure that's the case. Take instances of where people have been shouted and threatened into closing down their blogs. Generally, this does two things: a) it proves them right, and b) it makes them into a martyr. Even if you could care less about the actual people on the other side of the debate, acting like a mob is detrimental to your own side. (And as I said, I'm not accusing either radical feminism or MRAs as a group of all being a mob, I'm saying that there are mobs who have these views, and they need to cool down and start acting with some civility.
As for the MRA movement, well, I've seen what their concerns are, and I feel that a lot of them are very valid. I feel the same way about moderate Feminism. The difference, really, is that I've been able to find moderate feminists who I can actualle engage with (that is, who agree that MRA concerns are valid and who don't feel that being an MRA is a Bad Thing), but I have yet to find an avowed MRA who has any opinion about Feminism other than that all feminists are bad. One particular attempt to engage, I talked to a guy for a while and I thought I was making headway, but when I mentioned that not all feminists hold the opinions of radical feminists (and that my wife is a feminist), he linked the Wikipedia article on Stockholm Syndrome, which implies that a) I'm crazy, and b) the person I love the most in the world is holding me hostage. I understand that a lot of this is a backlash against the "fempire" and their ilk, but I feel strongly that people need to be very very careful with the generalizations they make, because they just lead to further polarization and more mobs, and make it impossible for civil people to engage in discussion or meaningful debate. Backlash just leads to more backlash, etc.
On the other hand, part of what I would consider to be a "moderate" viewpoint is that many of the things that both sides bring up are valid issues. We don't have to have a debate about them; we can just address problems as we see them.
So I'm going to skip right to the part where you twist my words around. :)
I’ve way over simplified both sides, and the debate goes much deeper, issues like how feminists tend to want equality of results where MRAs tend to want an ‘equal playing field.’ But what’s important to understand, this is much more than mob mentality- this is a serious and heated ideological debate. Calling it ‘mob mentality’ is insulting to both sides. Mob mentality is a word we use when theres lots of people acting in a way we don't agree with and don't understand. If you think people are mindlessly following one side or the other without thinking about it- then you’re completely ignorant- these are issues people obsess over.
I'm participating in this debate myself, so clearly I don't think that being part of the debate means that you're taking part in a mob. The "mob" are the people who act anonymously and aren't able to be civil. The threats and name calling against Adria aren't debate, they're just tactics used to silence people. Likewise, calling PlayHaven to get the guys fired isn't taking part in the debate either. It's just overreacting. While I disagree with some of what you're saying, I certainly wouldn't claim that you're part of a mob either. You're not threatening me or trying to shut me up; you're just voicing your disagreement.
Also note that I'm quite familiar with both radical feminism and mens' rights advocacy. There are of course moderate and radical MRAs, although while I've met plenty of feminists who categorically decry the views of the radical wing of feminism, I have yet to see a moderate MRA publicly criticize radical MRAs. Perhaps you can point me to an instance of this happening.
Also, I'm guessing from the difference in the way you presented the sides that you consider yourself an MRA. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I'd be happy to engage you in civil debate about that, but if we're going to do that I'd rather choose a different venue than OGA.
The beauty of it is that Disney doesn't have to care; the voting public does. Pushing this with Disney will accomplish nothing. Disney is in business to make a profit, and their business model is profitable.
We need to start fighting this stuff at the local and state level, in our political primaries. I'm not sure where the Libertarians and the Greens stand on this, but I do know that on the national level, the copyright situation isn't Republicans versus Democrats; it's legislators and media lobbyists versus the public. The only way to fix this is to a) vote third party, or b) go to our party primaries and vote for people who have a populist focus when it comes to copyright issues. (Note: OGA has no opinion about which political party you should vote for.)
This isn't a fight that can be won in a day. It probably can't even be won in a decade. But we can either give up and go home, or keep pushing out awareness of the issue and hopefully affect some change some time down the line.
@knittel: Free and Open Source Software
@Vidmaster: OGA is about making ART for GAMES. We need to get programmers and artists collaborating, and in order to do that, we should involve programmers too. Having a game making contest is a great way to do that.
It's no secret that I'm a JRPG fan. The story is always a huge part of a JRPG, so I think it's safe to say that I prefer games with a fairly involved storyline. That being said, there are plenty of games I like with little or no story.
I love it!
I 'll leave it up unless you specifically want it removed.
Whatever it was you just said, I couldn't have said it better myself. :)
I still think I wasn't quite clear.
I don't consider having even what I would call a radical opinion to be part of a mob mentality. I certainly would not claim that if you're not in the middle ground, you're part of a mob. What I was getting at as far as standing up for the middle ground is the fact that most of the time, the middle ground tends to keep quiet. They shake their heads and facepalm or whatever and then go back about their business. There are plenty of very civil people on both sides of this debate, even the radical parts, and I don't consider them to be part of a mob either.
As for nutty people getting stuff done, I'm not entirely sure that's the case. Take instances of where people have been shouted and threatened into closing down their blogs. Generally, this does two things: a) it proves them right, and b) it makes them into a martyr. Even if you could care less about the actual people on the other side of the debate, acting like a mob is detrimental to your own side. (And as I said, I'm not accusing either radical feminism or MRAs as a group of all being a mob, I'm saying that there are mobs who have these views, and they need to cool down and start acting with some civility.
As for the MRA movement, well, I've seen what their concerns are, and I feel that a lot of them are very valid. I feel the same way about moderate Feminism. The difference, really, is that I've been able to find moderate feminists who I can actualle engage with (that is, who agree that MRA concerns are valid and who don't feel that being an MRA is a Bad Thing), but I have yet to find an avowed MRA who has any opinion about Feminism other than that all feminists are bad. One particular attempt to engage, I talked to a guy for a while and I thought I was making headway, but when I mentioned that not all feminists hold the opinions of radical feminists (and that my wife is a feminist), he linked the Wikipedia article on Stockholm Syndrome, which implies that a) I'm crazy, and b) the person I love the most in the world is holding me hostage. I understand that a lot of this is a backlash against the "fempire" and their ilk, but I feel strongly that people need to be very very careful with the generalizations they make, because they just lead to further polarization and more mobs, and make it impossible for civil people to engage in discussion or meaningful debate. Backlash just leads to more backlash, etc.
On the other hand, part of what I would consider to be a "moderate" viewpoint is that many of the things that both sides bring up are valid issues. We don't have to have a debate about them; we can just address problems as we see them.
So I'm going to skip right to the part where you twist my words around. :)
I’ve way over simplified both sides, and the debate goes much deeper, issues like how feminists tend to want equality of results where MRAs tend to want an ‘equal playing field.’ But what’s important to understand, this is much more than mob mentality- this is a serious and heated ideological debate. Calling it ‘mob mentality’ is insulting to both sides. Mob mentality is a word we use when theres lots of people acting in a way we don't agree with and don't understand. If you think people are mindlessly following one side or the other without thinking about it- then you’re completely ignorant- these are issues people obsess over.
I'm participating in this debate myself, so clearly I don't think that being part of the debate means that you're taking part in a mob. The "mob" are the people who act anonymously and aren't able to be civil. The threats and name calling against Adria aren't debate, they're just tactics used to silence people. Likewise, calling PlayHaven to get the guys fired isn't taking part in the debate either. It's just overreacting. While I disagree with some of what you're saying, I certainly wouldn't claim that you're part of a mob either. You're not threatening me or trying to shut me up; you're just voicing your disagreement.
Also note that I'm quite familiar with both radical feminism and mens' rights advocacy. There are of course moderate and radical MRAs, although while I've met plenty of feminists who categorically decry the views of the radical wing of feminism, I have yet to see a moderate MRA publicly criticize radical MRAs. Perhaps you can point me to an instance of this happening.
Also, I'm guessing from the difference in the way you presented the sides that you consider yourself an MRA. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. I'd be happy to engage you in civil debate about that, but if we're going to do that I'd rather choose a different venue than OGA.
I made some small edits to some posts so links aren't generated automatically. I'd prefer we not give these sites a boost on google.
That's a good question. I'll ask and get back to you.
The beauty of it is that Disney doesn't have to care; the voting public does. Pushing this with Disney will accomplish nothing. Disney is in business to make a profit, and their business model is profitable.
We need to start fighting this stuff at the local and state level, in our political primaries. I'm not sure where the Libertarians and the Greens stand on this, but I do know that on the national level, the copyright situation isn't Republicans versus Democrats; it's legislators and media lobbyists versus the public. The only way to fix this is to a) vote third party, or b) go to our party primaries and vote for people who have a populist focus when it comes to copyright issues. (Note: OGA has no opinion about which political party you should vote for.)
This isn't a fight that can be won in a day. It probably can't even be won in a decade. But we can either give up and go home, or keep pushing out awareness of the issue and hopefully affect some change some time down the line.
Pages