Dude, that's just not a reasonable or useful definition of 'game', and I'll reiterate that it's not one that anyone uses either. You'll find plenty of commercial games on shelves today which are unbalanced, unpolished, poorly-concieved and even occasionally nearly (or completely) unplayable, and certainly entertaining only in the context of mocking LPs. And not always just cheap shovelware (we're looking at you, Sonic 2006). But nobody says they aren't games, just that they're bad games. Games can totally be bad--it's a thing.
And it seems unneccessarily rude, even condescending to suggest that all FOSS games are really just failed attempts at making games. Yeah, there are a lot of bad FOSS games, and a lot (a lot) of unfinished FOSS games, but not every FOSS game ever is bad and unfinished.
As to their place in video game history, I think at the moment FOSS development would pretty much constitute a curious side-note. There's no question that it's not a major player in the field, but one can always be hopeful for a larger role in the future.
Those things don't define what a game is, they define what a good game is. Trying to say a game that isn't good isn't a game is just silly. And that leaves the other problem with what you're saying--you are essentially claiming that no good foss game has ever been made. This, too, I think is a bit silly; I've played and enjoyed a few myself. The question your arguments really seem to be addressing is that of whether any great foss game has yet been made (and I think you and I would probably agree that the answer is 'not yet.' [though some great games have been made FOSS, notably The Ur-Quan Masters and Tyrian]).
@yd: honestly, your definition doesn't seem terribly well-defined. You also kind of side-stepped the question of Hedge Wars; on what basis would you say it's not a "game"? I've also worked on a few small commercial indies as well as FOSS projects, and I don't really think the experience was that different between them.
And really, redefining the term (however vaguely) strikes me as a kind of silly gesture--useful for being provocative but little else. It doesn't match up with anyone's usage, and if we're honest it's also unneccessarily offensive to devs.
@Yd: I partially agree with you--when I was trying to find FOSS characters to draw for Ultimate Smash Friends way back in the day I had a lot of trouble. There aren't too many character-driven FOSS games out there, which is a shame. Too many are either very simple or just use non-characters like Tux (something which has never appealed to me at all).
One game you left off your list is Super Hedge Wars. It's essentially a clone of Worms II, but it's totally playable, polished and a lot of fun (complete with multiplayer, internet play, etc). Easily as slick and professional as the game it copies, though I'll admit the worms have a lot more character than the hedgehogs.
"Those are, mostly, so well done that a game from '80 will surpass any FOSS game-like project made today. Sad but true."
Here's where I think you're off-base; the games you remember from the 80s and 90s do tend to be much better, but that's because they were the very best ones from that era (hence why you remember them). There is an awful lot of garbage from those years as well, garbage which lots of FOSS projects easily surpass.
They are all static sprites, though a couple have been animated a bit by others as you may have seen. I'd be happy to see them expanded and used, just be sure to follow the license requirements, few as they are :)
"Remember that episode of Friends when Ross puts on a performance with his keyboard for everyone else and then they laugh at him? Yeah."
"If you're the rational type of person who is taking my criticism seriously and not getting emotional and "mad" then you're the type of person interested in improving."
If you want your criticisms to be taken seriously, don't phrase them with uneccessary hostility. Don't be afraid to point out what's wrong and what needs improvement, but there is no need to be a jerk about it. We try to keep things as pleasant around here as possible.
For the record, CB, I'd recommend that you also think more about how you present yourself. Your conduct hasn't been fully professional, which is something that artists often pick up on pretty quickly. After all, there's enough difficulty involved in making an indie game for speculative pay (at best). Nobody wants to end up stuck with lots of time invested in a project where the leader is going to end up causing trouble due to lack of experience or just be unpleasant if things don't go well. Statements like "I think this is really stupid..." are shooting yourself in the foot. It's very important that you don't give people that impression early on.
A few more specific responses:
"I understand what your trying to say but, really In all my years of working, what I posted was enough to get me interested in a job (difrenet industry true but still ) then you contact the person for an interview for the job (were you also would get more info)..."
This analogy is flawed, because those jobs are for money, not speculative royalties on a first-time dev (generally put in the same category as free work because the chances of paying off are not that high). Which leads into...
"(man, I just want to give someone a break..help out them get into game design...and look how I am rewarded...)"
Let me put this clearly: you are not doing an artist a favor by having them do unpaid game art for you. It may end up being a mutually profitable partnership if you're very lucky, but they're taking a risk by investing their time (and thus their money) into the project, so it's not like they're getting something for nothing.
I'm not trying to be a jerk here or tear you down--these things are just very important. I want to see you and whoever you work with succeed, make a great game and a lot of money in the process.
jal: I'd reccomend you post some of your art here or at least a link to a portfolio/pixeljoint profile/whatever. i'd be interested in seeing it even though im not a dev, and i imagine you might have more luck that way.
@yd: to quote you:
"I enjoyed playing it, rqe. Nice game!"
I'd like my goat back, please.
Dude, that's just not a reasonable or useful definition of 'game', and I'll reiterate that it's not one that anyone uses either. You'll find plenty of commercial games on shelves today which are unbalanced, unpolished, poorly-concieved and even occasionally nearly (or completely) unplayable, and certainly entertaining only in the context of mocking LPs. And not always just cheap shovelware (we're looking at you, Sonic 2006). But nobody says they aren't games, just that they're bad games. Games can totally be bad--it's a thing.
And it seems unneccessarily rude, even condescending to suggest that all FOSS games are really just failed attempts at making games. Yeah, there are a lot of bad FOSS games, and a lot (a lot) of unfinished FOSS games, but not every FOSS game ever is bad and unfinished.
As to their place in video game history, I think at the moment FOSS development would pretty much constitute a curious side-note. There's no question that it's not a major player in the field, but one can always be hopeful for a larger role in the future.
Those things don't define what a game is, they define what a good game is. Trying to say a game that isn't good isn't a game is just silly. And that leaves the other problem with what you're saying--you are essentially claiming that no good foss game has ever been made. This, too, I think is a bit silly; I've played and enjoyed a few myself. The question your arguments really seem to be addressing is that of whether any great foss game has yet been made (and I think you and I would probably agree that the answer is 'not yet.' [though some great games have been made FOSS, notably The Ur-Quan Masters and Tyrian]).
@yd: honestly, your definition doesn't seem terribly well-defined. You also kind of side-stepped the question of Hedge Wars; on what basis would you say it's not a "game"? I've also worked on a few small commercial indies as well as FOSS projects, and I don't really think the experience was that different between them.
And really, redefining the term (however vaguely) strikes me as a kind of silly gesture--useful for being provocative but little else. It doesn't match up with anyone's usage, and if we're honest it's also unneccessarily offensive to devs.
@Yd: I partially agree with you--when I was trying to find FOSS characters to draw for Ultimate Smash Friends way back in the day I had a lot of trouble. There aren't too many character-driven FOSS games out there, which is a shame. Too many are either very simple or just use non-characters like Tux (something which has never appealed to me at all).
One game you left off your list is Super Hedge Wars. It's essentially a clone of Worms II, but it's totally playable, polished and a lot of fun (complete with multiplayer, internet play, etc). Easily as slick and professional as the game it copies, though I'll admit the worms have a lot more character than the hedgehogs.
"Those are, mostly, so well done that a game from '80 will surpass any FOSS game-like project made today. Sad but true."
Here's where I think you're off-base; the games you remember from the 80s and 90s do tend to be much better, but that's because they were the very best ones from that era (hence why you remember them). There is an awful lot of garbage from those years as well, garbage which lots of FOSS projects easily surpass.
They are all static sprites, though a couple have been animated a bit by others as you may have seen. I'd be happy to see them expanded and used, just be sure to follow the license requirements, few as they are :)
@Kemono:
"Remember that episode of Friends when Ross puts on a performance with his keyboard for everyone else and then they laugh at him? Yeah."
"If you're the rational type of person who is taking my criticism seriously and not getting emotional and "mad" then you're the type of person interested in improving."
If you want your criticisms to be taken seriously, don't phrase them with uneccessary hostility. Don't be afraid to point out what's wrong and what needs improvement, but there is no need to be a jerk about it. We try to keep things as pleasant around here as possible.
Hello,
Sorry for taking so long to respond. I've been out of town.
This looks awesome! My only suggestion is that the mustache should maybe be just a bit lower.
But this is awesome! I am very excited to see how this looks.
For the record, CB, I'd recommend that you also think more about how you present yourself. Your conduct hasn't been fully professional, which is something that artists often pick up on pretty quickly. After all, there's enough difficulty involved in making an indie game for speculative pay (at best). Nobody wants to end up stuck with lots of time invested in a project where the leader is going to end up causing trouble due to lack of experience or just be unpleasant if things don't go well. Statements like "I think this is really stupid..." are shooting yourself in the foot. It's very important that you don't give people that impression early on.
A few more specific responses:
"I understand what your trying to say but, really In all my years of working, what I posted was enough to get me interested in a job (difrenet industry true but still ) then you contact the person for an interview for the job (were you also would get more info)..."
This analogy is flawed, because those jobs are for money, not speculative royalties on a first-time dev (generally put in the same category as free work because the chances of paying off are not that high). Which leads into...
"(man, I just want to give someone a break..help out them get into game design...and look how I am rewarded...)"
Let me put this clearly: you are not doing an artist a favor by having them do unpaid game art for you. It may end up being a mutually profitable partnership if you're very lucky, but they're taking a risk by investing their time (and thus their money) into the project, so it's not like
they're getting something for nothing.
I'm not trying to be a jerk here or tear you down--these things are just very important. I want to see you and whoever you work with succeed, make a great game and a lot of money in the process.
jal: I'd reccomend you post some of your art here or at least a link to a portfolio/pixeljoint profile/whatever. i'd be interested in seeing it even though im not a dev, and i imagine you might have more luck that way.
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