This is pretty cool! I like how you've organized the assets, and the layers export seems pretty useful.
I'm looking forward to whenever you release your source code. I've also been working on a new spritesheet generator, so I'm curious to compare how we both approached some of the features.
So it's about what I thought still. People divided between preferring classic LPC vs. Eliza's LPC styles (regardless of difference in quantity of sprites). Hence saying there's two camps
I think we all agree that Eliza's work is really nice. However, she made several changes that break compatibility with existing assets. Either all existing assets need to be modified to work with Eliza's LPC, or alternatively Eliza's LPC could be modified to work with the existing assets.
Changing everything that's already been created is not a good option. The edits required are not as trivial as bzt thinks, and none of us (except maybe Eliza) has the time.
Eliza's LPC may someday be the standard, but right now it isn't ready for that. It does not have the same wide range of assets, and the conversation that has been going on here shows that it does not yet have the required support from the community.
That's a completely unnecessary waste of resources, considering the only difference between these sheets is +/- 1 pixel shifts on certain frames. [...] It is enough to have a single "sword" spritesheet
Many of the artists who have posted in this thread have been (or currently are) involved with that project, and when it is ready I will create a fork of the style guide based on it.
I've been in communication with bluecarrot16, but they're pretty busy with a large project right now, so I wouldn't expect them to write something about tiles any time soon.
Small steps is the point of smaller certifications. I listed 4 that cover everything that exists. In small steps, the artists here would meet those certifications. With a single large certification, we are asking the artists to make big steps.
plus the ones people on the forum would really like to have.
The majority of people on the forum are artists. We would really like to have more of the animations become standard and we have the skills to do it, but the lack of a certification is not what is stopping us. The time investment is.
Nope, it is off. [...] very few submissions would need to rework the base like the head [...] only clothes-type assets need all the animations, but not the others.
The head swap is a simpler change than most clothing assets. The times I gave are lower than they would be for clothing.
most weapon-like assets do not need to be redrawn at all, just repositioned a little to fit to the guide.
I'm fully aware. My LPC Weapons took closer to 10-15 minutes per frame. A single weapon is still probably a 3 to 5 hour project.
Plus you can swap palettes with a single-click.
The palette swap was by far the easiest part of the project. It does not significantly affect the times I gave, but I don't have data about how long I spent on palettes versus other parts of the project.
Update: made "sit" optional. Now there's 6 animation (which LPC already had), plus 2 ("run", "jump"). I think nobody can say that's not reasonable.
Fair enough. I will note: the run animation is not ready to be standard. There are 6 primary character bases (Child, Female, Pregnant, Male, Muscular, and Teen) and most of them do not support the run yet.
This is probably my last post specifically about certification. I've given my opinion, and don't think there is much more I could add.
maps with tiles and objects are typically created using Tiled, which imposes no restrictions, so I'm not sure we should either.
Not every game uses hand-crafted maps. What about games with procedural generation, or a building mechanic?
Whether it is a requirement or just a suggestion, I think it would be valuable to have some of that information added to the guide. That said, the expert on LPC tiles and objects is really @bluecarrot16, so I would defer to them on what should be included here.
This specification does not stop you from releasing your art! It only demands that the "LPC-CERT" tag can be added to your submission when it's ready to be used in games, and not sooner.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the LPC-CERT tag is intended to do two things:
Make it easier to find assets that have a complete set of animations
Encourage artists to release assets with a complete set of animations
In order to do either of those things, it has to set a standard for what is considered complete. No one likes to release unfinished art. If there is a standard for completeness, artists will wait to publish their work until they meet it, even if that means it sits on their computer forever.
You've listed 9 animations as mandatory. If an artist only needs 2 of those for their game, they will either never release their art, or never bother to meet the certification requirements. No one wins in this situation.
If we have several smaller certifications the artist will only need to create 1 or 2 additional animations to meet one, and they are much more likely to actually do it. Those are animations that would never have been created if the certification required all 9 animations.
If these small certifications have overlapping requirements (for example if LPC-MELEE-CERT requires a couple of animations that are also required for LPC-MEDIEVAL-CERT) then another artist is more likely to finish those last few animations needed for the next certification.
The disadvantage is that there is no single tag to find all LPC art that has a complete set of animations. However, there would still be many tags for smaller sets of animation which would make it easier to find art that can be used for a specific game.
I realize that for your own project, TirNanoG, that this is not the ideal situation, but I believe that many smaller certifications will lead to more assets being compatible with more animations than a single mega-certification ever will.
For reference, the standard 6 animations (cast, thrust, walk, slash, shoot, and hurt) have around 100 frames of animation after you remove all the frames that are mirrorred and duplicated. My LPC Wolfman took an average of 2.5 minutes per frame. That's 4 hours of work for a head swap and palette change. That is the simplest project you can ask for. A moderately complex project (like a new shirt, pants, or weapon) can take 2 to 3 times longer, and something more complex than that would take even longer still.
If my count is correct, the 3 new animations add 46 non-duplicated frames. That is an additional 2 hours of work. The simplest possible asset requires 6 hours to support all animations currently listed as required for the certification.
Compare that to a list of smaller certifications:
Base: Idle/Walk, Hurt (1 hour)
Combat: Thrust, Slash, Shoot (2.5 hours)
Movement: Jump, Run (1.5 hours)
Misc: Cast, Sit (1 hour)
If an artist has already created an asset with just 1 of these sets of animations, they are much more likely to create additional animations they did not need for their own project if the time commitment is small.
A FAQ is a good idea I agree, but I don't think we should put this into the spec, that's not where it belongs. But maybe a link to the FAQ? I can see more sense in that.
I was thinking of this as less of an FAQ, and more of a page for common pitfalls that would prevent you from getting the certification. Many new LPC artists don't realize these issues even exist. The guide is meant to increase compatability, and pointing out common errors does that.
In contrast to characters, which are animated according to the implement actions in the game and therefore can be complete / incomplete, I don't think such a thing exists for tiles. There's no mandatory blob or Wang tileset requirement in LPC, so it is very difficult to interpret "complete" for tiles.
I'll see if I can put together an illustration later that might make what I am thinking clearer.
Trust me, I know! But this spec MUST be backward compatible with the current LPC assets (animations type and number of animation frames wide)
I'm not saying we break backwards compatibility. It is very common for new assets to be released with only a subset of the existing animations. Typically, these are either split into their own individual sprite sheets (my preferred submission style), or layed out on the Universal Sheet with gaps left for the missing animations.
I am suggesting that we allow, and even encourage, this practice.
If my game only needs a walk and an idle animation, but I see that I can get the certification by drawing 1 additional animation, I am more likely to do it than if I have to draw 5.
If I draw that 1 additional animation, another artist is more likely to create the 4 missing animations later.
Yes, the animation's names are indeed confusing. But they aren't for medieval only,
My point was not that we should change the names of the animations, but that if I am making a sci-fi game then an archery animation is a waste of time for me.
Smaller certification groups increase the possibiilty that new art will get released instead of sitting on my computer until I finally get around to finishing that archery animation, and also make it easier to search for assets that will work with my specific genre of game.
The focus of this discussion has largely been about the characters, but I think there's room to improve other sections of the guide as well.
Miscellaneous Suggestions:
The copyright at the bottom of the page should be altered to include an LPC compatible license. None of us can use these guidelines until they're licensed properly.
A page with a quick-reference bullet point list of the requirements to be certified for each type of resource (tile, object, character), with links back to the relevant sections of the guide.
A page for common errors and how to correct them, such as having the incorrect head on left/right animations, or having too many colors because you did not use a dedicated pixel art editor. (I think I already have something written up for the incorrect head problem, I just have to find it again)
Tiles:
Guide for what makes a complete tile set, specifically for a building set. What is needed for a complete set of wall or roof pieces?
Color palettes for common materials: wood, stone, grass, snow, water, sand, glass, etc.
Objects:
A recommendation (maybe a requirement for the certification?) to draw objects from all 4 directions. This would only apply in cases where it makes sense: a barrel looks the same from all sides, but a chair does not.
Guidelines for how transparent materials like glass should be handled.
Color palettes for common materials: wood, stone, glass, metal, etc.
Characters:
I'd suggest having multiple certifications for different sets of animation. I propose we start with two:
Base: Idle (at least 1 frame), Walk, Hurt, maybe Sit. Your art needs to have (or be extending something that has) these animations to get any additional certifications.
Medieval: Cast, Thrust, Slash, Bowing
The remaining animations can be added to future certifications as it makes sense. A certification should have somewhere between 3 and 5 required animations.
Examples of possible future certifications (some animations don't exist yet, or have not been widely accepted):
Locomotion: Run, Jump, Climb, Crouch
Advanced Locomotion: Swim, Crawl, Slide
Melee: Thrust, Slash, Punch, Kick, Stab
Ranged: Bowing, Shoot Gun, Throw
Idle: Idle (more than 1 frame), Sit, Lying Down
Interact: Push, Pull, Carry
The advantages of this system are:
Smaller required lists makes creating new assets less daunting
We don't have to un-certify every asset whenever a new animation is added, we just create a new certification.
Overlapping required animations encourages doing 1 or 2 extra animations to get a second certification (for example, if I drew all the Melee animations, I might spend a little extra time to get the Medieval certification as well)
An artist working on a sci-fi game does not need to create medieval specific animations
submitted by Rhimlock, based on work by Johannes Sjölund (wulax). Rhimlock was unclear how much they contributed, but said there was no need to credit them. https://opengameart.org/content/lpc-skeleton
Wolfmen
Matthew Krohn (makrohn) is credited because of the female thrust/shoot animations.
I think it would be useful to have a version of the shell tools with a graphical interface. Even if it is literally just a "Load Image" button. That way, someone who doesn't want to use the command-line can still draw over a template and replicate their head/hair/whatever to a full sheet easily.
On a related topic, I'd like to see the tools have more support for exporting separate animations, instead of having everything in a single image. Having everything in a single spritesheet is useful for passing improvements back and forth in a thread like this, but it discourages adding new animations because modifying the sheet breaks compatibility with existing assets.
We could also use the lower body from the "run" animation for this, combined with arms as Basto and BenCreating have proposed; TheraHedwig's run animation has the torso tilted diagonally forward, and the legs slowed down could be kinda kicking for swimming. That way it would work for underwater levels, or with a semitransparent overlay for swimming at the surface.
If we tilt the swim forward then we probably also need a non-tilted Idle animation.
At least for the "push", this could also borrow from the "run" animation---maybe the torso and lower body are the same and the arms are just held out in front of the character, pushing. Not sure about pulling.
Pulling would need a new backwards tilted torso. Probably not tilted as far, so the arms don't have to be really long.
If I have time, I'll make a quick proof-of-concept for these.
I'm having a hard time understanding Daneeklu's/BenCreating's animation here... Can you show an example of how it would be used?
A nod animation could be done with a head from the death animation, and the tilted head from the run animation. Sadly, this wouldn't give us a "look up" frame.
This is pretty cool! I like how you've organized the assets, and the layers export seems pretty useful.
I'm looking forward to whenever you release your source code. I've also been working on a new spritesheet generator, so I'm curious to compare how we both approached some of the features.
I think we all agree that Eliza's work is really nice. However, she made several changes that break compatibility with existing assets. Either all existing assets need to be modified to work with Eliza's LPC, or alternatively Eliza's LPC could be modified to work with the existing assets.
Changing everything that's already been created is not a good option. The edits required are not as trivial as bzt thinks, and none of us (except maybe Eliza) has the time.
Eliza's LPC may someday be the standard, but right now it isn't ready for that. It does not have the same wide range of assets, and the conversation that has been going on here shows that it does not yet have the required support from the community.
Are you aware of the existing project that was inspired by last time this was all discussed on the forum? When the next update is ready (and it almost is) this will no longer be a big issue.
Many of the artists who have posted in this thread have been (or currently are) involved with that project, and when it is ready I will create a fork of the style guide based on it.
I don't have any more suggestions at the moment.
I've been in communication with bluecarrot16, but they're pretty busy with a large project right now, so I wouldn't expect them to write something about tiles any time soon.
Small steps is the point of smaller certifications. I listed 4 that cover everything that exists. In small steps, the artists here would meet those certifications. With a single large certification, we are asking the artists to make big steps.
The majority of people on the forum are artists. We would really like to have more of the animations become standard and we have the skills to do it, but the lack of a certification is not what is stopping us. The time investment is.
The head swap is a simpler change than most clothing assets. The times I gave are lower than they would be for clothing.
I'm fully aware. My LPC Weapons took closer to 10-15 minutes per frame. A single weapon is still probably a 3 to 5 hour project.
The palette swap was by far the easiest part of the project. It does not significantly affect the times I gave, but I don't have data about how long I spent on palettes versus other parts of the project.
Fair enough. I will note: the run animation is not ready to be standard. There are 6 primary character bases (Child, Female, Pregnant, Male, Muscular, and Teen) and most of them do not support the run yet.
This is probably my last post specifically about certification. I've given my opinion, and don't think there is much more I could add.
Not every game uses hand-crafted maps. What about games with procedural generation, or a building mechanic?
Whether it is a requirement or just a suggestion, I think it would be valuable to have some of that information added to the guide. That said, the expert on LPC tiles and objects is really @bluecarrot16, so I would defer to them on what should be included here.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but the LPC-CERT tag is intended to do two things:
In order to do either of those things, it has to set a standard for what is considered complete. No one likes to release unfinished art. If there is a standard for completeness, artists will wait to publish their work until they meet it, even if that means it sits on their computer forever.
You've listed 9 animations as mandatory. If an artist only needs 2 of those for their game, they will either never release their art, or never bother to meet the certification requirements. No one wins in this situation.
If we have several smaller certifications the artist will only need to create 1 or 2 additional animations to meet one, and they are much more likely to actually do it. Those are animations that would never have been created if the certification required all 9 animations.
If these small certifications have overlapping requirements (for example if LPC-MELEE-CERT requires a couple of animations that are also required for LPC-MEDIEVAL-CERT) then another artist is more likely to finish those last few animations needed for the next certification.
The disadvantage is that there is no single tag to find all LPC art that has a complete set of animations. However, there would still be many tags for smaller sets of animation which would make it easier to find art that can be used for a specific game.
I realize that for your own project, TirNanoG, that this is not the ideal situation, but I believe that many smaller certifications will lead to more assets being compatible with more animations than a single mega-certification ever will.
For reference, the standard 6 animations (cast, thrust, walk, slash, shoot, and hurt) have around 100 frames of animation after you remove all the frames that are mirrorred and duplicated. My LPC Wolfman took an average of 2.5 minutes per frame. That's 4 hours of work for a head swap and palette change. That is the simplest project you can ask for. A moderately complex project (like a new shirt, pants, or weapon) can take 2 to 3 times longer, and something more complex than that would take even longer still.
If my count is correct, the 3 new animations add 46 non-duplicated frames. That is an additional 2 hours of work. The simplest possible asset requires 6 hours to support all animations currently listed as required for the certification.
Compare that to a list of smaller certifications:
If an artist has already created an asset with just 1 of these sets of animations, they are much more likely to create additional animations they did not need for their own project if the time commitment is small.
I was thinking of this as less of an FAQ, and more of a page for common pitfalls that would prevent you from getting the certification. Many new LPC artists don't realize these issues even exist. The guide is meant to increase compatability, and pointing out common errors does that.
I'll see if I can put together an illustration later that might make what I am thinking clearer.
I'm not saying we break backwards compatibility. It is very common for new assets to be released with only a subset of the existing animations. Typically, these are either split into their own individual sprite sheets (my preferred submission style), or layed out on the Universal Sheet with gaps left for the missing animations.
I am suggesting that we allow, and even encourage, this practice.
If my game only needs a walk and an idle animation, but I see that I can get the certification by drawing 1 additional animation, I am more likely to do it than if I have to draw 5.
If I draw that 1 additional animation, another artist is more likely to create the 4 missing animations later.
My point was not that we should change the names of the animations, but that if I am making a sci-fi game then an archery animation is a waste of time for me.
Smaller certification groups increase the possibiilty that new art will get released instead of sitting on my computer until I finally get around to finishing that archery animation, and also make it easier to search for assets that will work with my specific genre of game.
The focus of this discussion has largely been about the characters, but I think there's room to improve other sections of the guide as well.
Miscellaneous Suggestions:
Tiles:
Objects:
Characters:
I'd suggest having multiple certifications for different sets of animation. I propose we start with two:
The remaining animations can be added to future certifications as it makes sense. A certification should have somewhere between 3 and 5 required animations.
Examples of possible future certifications (some animations don't exist yet, or have not been widely accepted):
The advantages of this system are:
You've already found my boar, but here's a few others you might be able to use.
Redshrike made a rabbit you could definitely use, and you might be able to get a quail or partridge out of bluecarrot16's birds.
There's also a goat and a ram that could work, especially near mountains.
I don't know about the recolors, but I can help with the others.
Human Female Shoot/Thrust
by Matthew Krohn (makrohn) https://opengameart.org/content/lpc-ladies
Skeleton Shoot
by Johannes Sjölund (wulax) https://opengameart.org/content/lpc-medieval-fantasy-character-sprites
Skeleton Thrust
submitted by Rhimlock, based on work by Johannes Sjölund (wulax). Rhimlock was unclear how much they contributed, but said there was no need to credit them. https://opengameart.org/content/lpc-skeleton
Wolfmen
Matthew Krohn (makrohn) is credited because of the female thrust/shoot animations.
William.Thompsonj is credited for commissioning/contributing the wolf I took the head from. https://opengameart.org/content/lpc-wolf-animation
You should also credit castelonia for commissioning the Wolfmen.
I think it would be useful to have a version of the shell tools with a graphical interface. Even if it is literally just a "Load Image" button. That way, someone who doesn't want to use the command-line can still draw over a template and replicate their head/hair/whatever to a full sheet easily.
On a related topic, I'd like to see the tools have more support for exporting separate animations, instead of having everything in a single image. Having everything in a single spritesheet is useful for passing improvements back and forth in a thread like this, but it discourages adding new animations because modifying the sheet breaks compatibility with existing assets.
If we tilt the swim forward then we probably also need a non-tilted Idle animation.
Pulling would need a new backwards tilted torso. Probably not tilted as far, so the arms don't have to be really long.
If I have time, I'll make a quick proof-of-concept for these.
Daneeklu never made an example, but I assume it would be used like this: https://i.imgur.com/97yDgHj.gif
A nod animation could be done with a head from the death animation, and the tilted head from the run animation. Sadly, this wouldn't give us a "look up" frame.
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