@Bluecarrot16: Apologies. I am not setting a good example of keeping things on-topic.
@All: Please direct any responses to my bureaucratic ramblings to a Private Message :P ... or a new topic thread. Unless the comments are focused on attributions for the LPC character sprites, they may be removed at OP's discretion... including my own comments.
"...it'd be like having tags on all articles in the supermarket but not the prices, then tell users they have to go look for the prices themselves by using the tag on some big database machine,.."
What I'm saying: "This is a sucky supermarket. We should put the pricetags on this stuff."
What it sounded like you were saying: "This is a sucky supermarket. People should just steal this stuff."
I was just trying to say that a difficult supermarket experience is not an excuse to break the law. Making the law easier to follow is the solution. Letting people break the law is not. I get that you aren't suggesting people shouldn't give credit... But what are you suggesting? What do you recommend to help solve the problems you're outlining?
Right. In the example I outline, permission is given by the author, but the author is not me, my friend, or my associate... so rule #2 forbids their use as it is currently written. Thus my suggestion for a revised rule #2/#3 that basically says 'if they're not on OGA already, make sure they're OGA-compatible, then submit them'. I'm probably just being too rules-lawyerish. :/
EDIT: P.S. When I said "I don't recommend people uploading [logos and promotional] assets, even if they want to." I should have said "I don't want people to submit those. They are not useful to anyone but the submitter. Please do not encourage people to submit assets that I will have to remove."
"2. Your game is only allowed to contain art assets from OpenGameArt.org, or made by yourself or your friends and/or associates. Using commercial assets that you not have the rights to use is not permitted."
This implies I cannot use assets that are not yet on OGA and that I did not create, but are never-the-less eligible to be submitted to OGA. For example if I found some cc0 assets by another artist on deviantart. The assets are not on OGA, but they could be. Yet they were not created by me or my friends or associates since I do not personally know the deviantart artist. I could not use these assets in the Jam. Is this the correct intent of the rule?
I think this could possibly be joined together with rule #3. suggested omissions in strikethrough suggested additions in bold explanatory notes in italics
3. All newly created art assets used in your game must either already be on OpenGameArt.org or be made available on OpenGameArt.org before or at the end of the jam, provided they fit into any of the art submission categories there.<--I'm not sure this part is necessary. The categories should enforce themselves.This means if you didn't find the assets on OpenGameArt.org, you must have permission to submit them under one of OpenGameArt.org's licenses<--this should make rule #2 unnecessary.Using commercial assets that you do not have the rights to use is not permitted. <--copied from rule #2, because its an important clarification Exceptions are given for game logos, cover arts, banners and other promotional material (but if you want to post them on OGA anyway, no problem ;-)). eh, most logos and promotional art is too specific to be used by any other game, so such assets usually go against the "must be usable by others" rule. I don't recommend people uploading those assets, even if they want to.
Question: the rules say it is ok to reuse some code, but what about game concept? I submitted a game to a previous jam and liked the results. Based on feedback I've decided to rewrite it for a broader platform base. All the code will be new, none is reused (complete rewrite using a different programming language) but the concept/theme is the same. Is that ok to submit or better to have something new?
well, the fontsquirrel matcherator didn't seem to work, but yd was able to tell me the font he uses in some of his previews. I think it's pretty great for this sort of UI: https://www.dafont.com/duvall.font
Thank you for your response, goodtextures. There might have been a conflict between those stipulations and the CC0 license, but the textures are not actually included in this submission (I think... I'm not the best with blender), so the issue is moot. :)
Gotcha. Ok, that makes sense. I think you're right about underestimating most people's laziness. :P
I think one important take-away that may help you understand bluecarrot's and my perspective on this a little more: If the idea is to say "let's ease up on the absolute requirement that all these credits be in the game every time. It will help encourage more people to use it, even if not everyone credits the full list"?... That... is not going to happen.
As Bluecarrot said, the attribution requirement is non-negotiable. We have been entrusted with the stewardship of these free assets by all their respective artists. We do not have the right or authority to "reduce the price" on the goods we're showcasing on behalf of the owners of those goods.
"people misunderstand when others don't or forget to credit. There's no ill intent behind it, it's just that they don't know or understand the benefits it might have for the artist"
Allow me to rephrase this to illustrate a point: "People misunderstand when others don't or forget to pay for their groceries at the supermarket. There's no ill intent behind it, it's just that they don't know or understand the benefits it might have for the supermarket employees." This of course hyperbole, but the point is, not caring enough or not understanding the license doesn't make it ok. Should we arrest them? of course not, but we cannot claim attribution is important while at the same time giving a pass to everyone who 'didn't know'. Like you said, most people are happy to correct it when we simply politely tell them, but with that comes strict enforcement as well.
In short, it is more important that people give proper attribution than it is for the assets to be widely adopted. I know that seems counter-productive since our goal is wide adoption of these assets, but that is the nature of any copyleft content, software or otherwise. It doesn't matter that most people will never bother to open the credits.csv referenced in these games credit's screen, only* that if a player wanted to know where the art came from, they could find out.
*(That being said, the reason there is hesitation to deem a simple url link as acceptable attribution is because there is specific legal language in the license text for both GPL and CC-BY-SA that may render this technique inadequate. You are certainly allowed to put a blurb like this in your game credits screen:
"these assets have lots of authors. Check out this link for a full list of them: http;//www,lazyattribution,com/my_game_credit_list.html
but the license stipulates the credits should, at the least, be included as a .txt file in your games files as well.)
@Kuranyem: I am also a programmer, though my experiences differ quite a bit from this account. :) It is true that some people will never bother giving due credit, but those are the same sort of people who get a lot of their assets from ripped commercial graphics and spriter's resource. Oh, well. OGA is for people who want their assets to be completely without risk of intellectual property troubles.
Regarding LPC being a big cumbersome beast: agreed. and the work outlined in this thread is definitely integral to rectifying a lot of the issues you've brought up.
Admittedly, I missed the point about 100+ credit file being a barrier for use. I apologize, it was directed at no one here. My reaction was mostly in response to some separate experiences I had with users (none of whom have posted here) that were willing to add all the LPC art to their game, but unwilling to give credit to the artists who deserve it... because it was 'just too much work.' THAT is the disrespect I was getting at, though none of that happened here, so my reaction was misdirected.
I can see that what we're talking about instead is people who would like to use the LPC art, but choose not to because it is too much work to navigate attribution. I think there is a good chance this project can solve that problem. having a single file you can drop into your game files to cover all attribution in one move will help with that barrier quite a bit, I think. Not a counterpoint, just reiterating that we are on the same page. :)
..."Should you really use CSV? And not an open-source alternative, or easy to open with another open-source editor"...
??? I... what? CSV is definitely open source. It's also the most easy-to-open-in-another-editor spreadsheet format in existence. It's literally just a series of Comma Separated Values in plaintext. Even if all you have is notepad, you can still open up a CSV and get a decent simulacrum of a spreadsheet. Did you have some other format in mind?
I wouldn't say there is little interest in OGA art, though. Like you said, that is subjective. OGA gets hundreds of unique visitors and hundreds of downloads a day.
1) Yes, finding the good stuff here is tedious. I wish I had the resources to solve that problem. I guess that is what comes with "free", a lot of the time. Not a lot of funding to make improvements. :/
2) True. OGA is a bit like a flea market: There's a lot of junk, but if you browse for a bit you're sure to find a bargain. I originally came to OGA and found fantastic resources for making several games. I love it all! Easiest way to find the good stuff is in the "all time favorites" category, but I'm sure everyone here knows that already. :P
3) hmm.. this has not been my experience. There are definitely more people coming here to download assets than there are artists here sharing assets. The downloaders just tend not to say much usually. Kenney's stuff is great, which I'm sure is why he's the #1 ranked submitter on OGA. Which leads back into interest: Kenney posts nearly all of his assets here even though he has his own website. This is because OGA gets a lot of traffic, and those visitors find Kenney when they ordinarily would never have found his site. OGA is great for providing fixer-uppers; most of the art needs some work before it can fit into a game, but the price is right! It's also great for linking developers with artists. Like you said, you'll usually need custom work done, because no two games are the same. A lot of developers commission artists they've met here. I guess my point is, OGA isn't meant to be a high end art boutique with game-ready graphics behind a paywall. It's a free bargain bin to get you started. It's not in competition with Asset Jesus or the Unity store, it's a partner.
I understand what you're saying. I know you aren't speaking ill of these artists. I find the LPC assets immensely helpful and enjoyable myself. Since I benefit so much from them, the cost/benefit ratio is in my favor, but I can see how it would not be if the usefulness to you is not as high. The goal is to reduce the cost (attribution hindrance) and increase benefit (general usefulness of LPC). I actually am interested to know what details you want to share. Though, if you're saying you don't feel the LPC art is very useful for your particular needs, I think that may be off-topic here. Would you be willing to share more on a separate forum thread? or discuss via PM?
@Bluecarrot16: Apologies. I am not setting a good example of keeping things on-topic.
@All: Please direct any responses to my bureaucratic ramblings to a Private Message :P ... or a new topic thread. Unless the comments are focused on attributions for the LPC character sprites, they may be removed at OP's discretion... including my own comments.
What I'm saying: "This is a sucky supermarket. We should put the pricetags on this stuff."
What it sounded like you were saying: "This is a sucky supermarket. People should just steal this stuff."
I was just trying to say that a difficult supermarket experience is not an excuse to break the law. Making the law easier to follow is the solution. Letting people break the law is not. I get that you aren't suggesting people shouldn't give credit... But what are you suggesting? What do you recommend to help solve the problems you're outlining?
Right. In the example I outline, permission is given by the author, but the author is not me, my friend, or my associate... so rule #2 forbids their use as it is currently written. Thus my suggestion for a revised rule #2/#3 that basically says 'if they're not on OGA already, make sure they're OGA-compatible, then submit them'. I'm probably just being too rules-lawyerish. :/
EDIT: P.S. When I said "I don't recommend people uploading [logos and promotional] assets, even if they want to." I should have said "I don't want people to submit those. They are not useful to anyone but the submitter. Please do not encourage people to submit assets that I will have to remove."
This implies I cannot use assets that are not yet on OGA and that I did not create, but are never-the-less eligible to be submitted to OGA. For example if I found some cc0 assets by another artist on deviantart. The assets are not on OGA, but they could be. Yet they were not created by me or my friends or associates since I do not personally know the deviantart artist. I could not use these assets in the Jam. Is this the correct intent of the rule?
I think this could possibly be joined together with rule #3.
suggested omissions in strikethroughsuggested additions in bold
explanatory notes in italics
3. All
newly createdart assets used in your game must either already be on OpenGameArt.org or be made available on OpenGameArt.org before or at the end of the jam,provided they fit into any of the art submission categories there.<--I'm not sure this part is necessary. The categories should enforce themselves. This means if you didn't find the assets on OpenGameArt.org, you must have permission to submit them under one of OpenGameArt.org's licenses <--this should make rule #2 unnecessary. Using commercial assets that you do not have the rights to use is not permitted. <--copied from rule #2, because its an important clarification Exceptions are given for game logos, cover arts, banners and other promotional material(but if you want to post them on OGA anyway, no problem ;-)). eh, most logos and promotional art is too specific to be used by any other game, so such assets usually go against the "must be usable by others" rule. I don't recommend people uploading those assets, even if they want to.Announced! (see homepage)
Question: the rules say it is ok to reuse some code, but what about game concept? I submitted a game to a previous jam and liked the results. Based on feedback I've decided to rewrite it for a broader platform base. All the code will be new, none is reused (complete rewrite using a different programming language) but the concept/theme is the same. Is that ok to submit or better to have something new?
Woops! I awarded the medals, but forgot to congratulate:
Congratulations TAD for winning submission Iced Village!
Thank you to all participants!
well, the fontsquirrel matcherator didn't seem to work, but yd was able to tell me the font he uses in some of his previews. I think it's pretty great for this sort of UI: https://www.dafont.com/duvall.font
Thank you for your response, goodtextures. There might have been a conflict between those stipulations and the CC0 license, but the textures are not actually included in this submission (I think... I'm not the best with blender), so the issue is moot. :)
Gotcha. Ok, that makes sense. I think you're right about underestimating most people's laziness. :P
I think one important take-away that may help you understand bluecarrot's and my perspective on this a little more: If the idea is to say "let's ease up on the absolute requirement that all these credits be in the game every time. It will help encourage more people to use it, even if not everyone credits the full list"?... That... is not going to happen.
As Bluecarrot said, the attribution requirement is non-negotiable. We have been entrusted with the stewardship of these free assets by all their respective artists. We do not have the right or authority to "reduce the price" on the goods we're showcasing on behalf of the owners of those goods.
Allow me to rephrase this to illustrate a point: "People misunderstand when others don't or forget to pay for their groceries at the supermarket. There's no ill intent behind it, it's just that they don't know or understand the benefits it might have for the supermarket employees." This of course hyperbole, but the point is, not caring enough or not understanding the license doesn't make it ok. Should we arrest them? of course not, but we cannot claim attribution is important while at the same time giving a pass to everyone who 'didn't know'. Like you said, most people are happy to correct it when we simply politely tell them, but with that comes strict enforcement as well.
In short, it is more important that people give proper attribution than it is for the assets to be widely adopted. I know that seems counter-productive since our goal is wide adoption of these assets, but that is the nature of any copyleft content, software or otherwise. It doesn't matter that most people will never bother to open the credits.csv referenced in these games credit's screen, only* that if a player wanted to know where the art came from, they could find out.
*(That being said, the reason there is hesitation to deem a simple url link as acceptable attribution is because there is specific legal language in the license text for both GPL and CC-BY-SA that may render this technique inadequate. You are certainly allowed to put a blurb like this in your game credits screen:
but the license stipulates the credits should, at the least, be included as a .txt file in your games files as well.)
EDIT: I was ninja'd by bluecarrot16. XD
@Kuranyem: I am also a programmer, though my experiences differ quite a bit from this account. :) It is true that some people will never bother giving due credit, but those are the same sort of people who get a lot of their assets from ripped commercial graphics and spriter's resource. Oh, well. OGA is for people who want their assets to be completely without risk of intellectual property troubles.
Regarding LPC being a big cumbersome beast: agreed. and the work outlined in this thread is definitely integral to rectifying a lot of the issues you've brought up.
Admittedly, I missed the point about 100+ credit file being a barrier for use. I apologize, it was directed at no one here. My reaction was mostly in response to some separate experiences I had with users (none of whom have posted here) that were willing to add all the LPC art to their game, but unwilling to give credit to the artists who deserve it... because it was 'just too much work.' THAT is the disrespect I was getting at, though none of that happened here, so my reaction was misdirected.
I can see that what we're talking about instead is people who would like to use the LPC art, but choose not to because it is too much work to navigate attribution. I think there is a good chance this project can solve that problem. having a single file you can drop into your game files to cover all attribution in one move will help with that barrier quite a bit, I think. Not a counterpoint, just reiterating that we are on the same page. :)
??? I... what? CSV is definitely open source. It's also the most easy-to-open-in-another-editor spreadsheet format in existence. It's literally just a series of Comma Separated Values in plaintext. Even if all you have is notepad, you can still open up a CSV and get a decent simulacrum of a spreadsheet. Did you have some other format in mind?
I wouldn't say there is little interest in OGA art, though. Like you said, that is subjective. OGA gets hundreds of unique visitors and hundreds of downloads a day.
1) Yes, finding the good stuff here is tedious. I wish I had the resources to solve that problem. I guess that is what comes with "free", a lot of the time. Not a lot of funding to make improvements. :/
2) True. OGA is a bit like a flea market: There's a lot of junk, but if you browse for a bit you're sure to find a bargain. I originally came to OGA and found fantastic resources for making several games. I love it all! Easiest way to find the good stuff is in the "all time favorites" category, but I'm sure everyone here knows that already. :P
3) hmm.. this has not been my experience. There are definitely more people coming here to download assets than there are artists here sharing assets. The downloaders just tend not to say much usually. Kenney's stuff is great, which I'm sure is why he's the #1 ranked submitter on OGA. Which leads back into interest: Kenney posts nearly all of his assets here even though he has his own website. This is because OGA gets a lot of traffic, and those visitors find Kenney when they ordinarily would never have found his site. OGA is great for providing fixer-uppers; most of the art needs some work before it can fit into a game, but the price is right! It's also great for linking developers with artists. Like you said, you'll usually need custom work done, because no two games are the same. A lot of developers commission artists they've met here. I guess my point is, OGA isn't meant to be a high end art boutique with game-ready graphics behind a paywall. It's a free bargain bin to get you started. It's not in competition with Asset Jesus or the Unity store, it's a partner.
I understand what you're saying. I know you aren't speaking ill of these artists. I find the LPC assets immensely helpful and enjoyable myself. Since I benefit so much from them, the cost/benefit ratio is in my favor, but I can see how it would not be if the usefulness to you is not as high. The goal is to reduce the cost (attribution hindrance) and increase benefit (general usefulness of LPC). I actually am interested to know what details you want to share. Though, if you're saying you don't feel the LPC art is very useful for your particular needs, I think that may be off-topic here. Would you be willing to share more on a separate forum thread? or discuss via PM?
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