Agreed. I think having both is definitely possible. It's true that the economics play a major role it getting it to work right; having the shopkeepers pay such terrible returns on common items means players will only pick up the loot that is useful to them, and not because they want to loot-farm so they can sell it all. I think having loot tables still have logical ties to the mob dropping loot is good, but make them a bit more varied.
IE loot tables for Kobold archer (randomly selected):
Shortbow, 10 arrows
Shortbow, 20 arrows
Shortbow, 30 arrows
After slaying a pack 12 kobolds, I end up with over 200 arrows. I have a party of rangers, but never use that many arrows. The game can supply a useful amount of arrows (and a bow, now and then) without diminishing the special-ness of loot. What I suggest:
(nothing)
20 arrows
(nothing)
Shorbow
a minor bauble
(nothing)
(nothing)
10 arrows
(nothing)
2 specialty arrows
The loot still makes sense for the enemy-type, but the enemy type is also low-level. Dropping no loot at all most of the time still makes sense. The same group of 12 kobolds will still yeild about 30 arrows, a bow, a shiny rock, and 2 fire arrows. More exciting (and useful) than 12 bows and 220 arrows. Ok, I'm done ranting about loot. I yield back the remainder of my text. :P
@Danimal: can you explain what you mean about those games being more complex? Story-wise? Graphically? gameplay mechanics? I'm only just becoming familiar with some of the titles. In what way does Divine Divinity let you play the way you want to compared to other RPGs? Very interesting.
@M7600: Yeah, I always thought that made a lot more sense to have loot tables be more specific to what dropped it. Certainly not the only engine that does that, but definitely a plus for Infinity games. Though I wish the drops weren't quite so... consistent? When a kobold archer always drops a shortbow and 10-30 arrows, it creates a weird sort of loot-inflation where those items become nearly worthless to the player. When I play Baldur's gate, the land around High Hedge is constantly littered with halberds; every gnoll drops one, and they aren't even worth picking up. I'd rather they dropped nothing most of the time, but occasionally dropped a low-level weapon and maybe some fungible trinket.
Works just fine for me. I was able to edit it without issue using chrome. (see revision history) I did get a warning about 'tags cannot be blank' though, so I added a few just to see if it would work. The tags were (originally?) blank and have since become a required field.
I definitely understand operating a project on a minimal budget. Again, check out the massive asset library. It may already have what you need and it's all free. :) I know you haven't looked through it all yet because it is large enough to take several days of swimming to get across. :P
People around here can even help you find things if you are able to provide more specifics about what you have in mind.
There isn't a specific "Introductions Forum", but that may be by design. Best to just join and dive right in. (If you know of any good FLOSS game assets to share, that'll always make a great first impression :)
Most people just introduce themselves in whatever other forum makes sense with the topic they'd like to talk about: "Hi, I'm Andrea. I like games and I'm looking for tutorials about programming" would be best suited for the Programming forum, for example.
If you're looking for some great free music for your project, obviously browsing the Music Archive is a great place to start.
Each asset submission has a place for comments and questions about that asset, but if you'd like to discuss music in general, the Audio forum is ideal.
If you'd like to talk about your Work-In-Progress project, then the Show Off Your Project forum is the place to visit.
If you're in need of more specific assets, or didn't quite find what you were looking for while browsing our massive asset library, you can always post your needs in the Resource Request forum. You'll probably get more enthusiastic responses if you're able to hire talent (artists gotta eat, right?), but a few artists may be willing to donate their time if it strikes their interests. Though, I wouldn't count on others investing a lot of their free time when they have their own passion projects to work on :/
Although I have seen a lot of talk around the web about the broadly worded legislation allowing for some really crappy overreach, I did find this video that seemed helpful (and from an IP lawyer).
Jastiv "what is wrong with this game is design, but its like I can't put my finger on exactly why it sucks."
Indeed. Same thought all the time. It bugs me so much I usually end up doing in-depth analysis of a game I don't even really enjoy that much. Ugh! Fortunately, I often come to a satisfying conclusion about what parts of the design are bad and how I might go about fixing them in my own games. No idea if my conclusions would actually be effective though. At least not until I publish my games and see how the players feel about them. :/
邪悪 "Programmer, writer, artist - it all doesn't matter. People who play games every day since childhood will always be the best game designers"
I agree that being a gamer is more relevant to becoming a good game designer than being a programmer is. Though I'd say there is still a big gap between "gamer who wants to be a game designer" and "actually decent game designer".
"Just make a party of ranged damage dealers and focus fire / AoE fire everyone to death. Works every time."
I have seen this a lot, but I have played a lot of games where this is definitely a losing strategy. Most of the single-digit Final Fantasies allow you to spec out your entire party as ranged/AoE, but it tends to be a drawback more than an advantage in my opinion. Although DCSS is not a party-based RPG, I challenge you to beat the game as a ranger or AoE mage. Not because the ranged classes are under-powered, but because the game is IMHO properly balanced across multiple play styles. Perhaps that is the key here; If every player can blow through even the toughest enemies with ease using the ranged/AoE party, sure the game is poorly designed. But if some players can, yet others find that strategy undesireable, then I would say the game is well designed; it caters to different play styles in different ways.
You mentioned Might and Magic. Reading advice from other pro gamers on M&M6/7, the conventional wisdom is to avoid playing as druids at all costs; "they're worthless". However, when I tried a party of all druids, they quickly became unbelievably overpowered. Far more so than any other party combination I've heard of. With 4x more mana than health, I was able to do some rediculous things like casting Inferno more than an archer would shoot arrows. (Inferno being rather costly top tier spell) I could clear out entire end-game dungeons without running out of mana. Evil didn't stand a chance. Yes, that does fall into the "ranged damage dealers and AoE fire everyone to death" tactic, but my point is -in this case- it is a path everyone else considered the most difficult. Maybe some of the games are broken, but others are designed to have "different strokes for different folks". :)
withthelove "... identifying why a game doesn't work is one of the toughest challenges in game development. Of course, when a game's not working, anyone can rattle off the 50 things that are all wrong and they hate about it, but identifying the one or two things that actually need to be changed to make the game work? That's a much harder skill to come by."
Yes. This. It is easy to say "this is a poor design. I would have made it better." Harder to determine how it could be better without breaking some other game mechanic. Harder still to actually implement such an 'improved mechanic' and have your own players like it more than the other game's version of it.
chasersgaming "...This was lost because of its randomly generated platform Levels."
I see this a lot, actually. Sometimes the unlimited chaotic potential of RNG is more fun for the game dev than it is for the player. As Jastiv hints at, no randomly generated content is ever going be better crafted than what a manually designed level can be. On the other hand, even the most amazingly hand-crafted levels are not going to still be exciting and new after the 4th playthrough. Random levels have the potential to be novel and exciting on repeat playthroughs, but they can still get old pretty fast if the RNG is bland.
Jastiv: "...how long that will take depends mostly on how much variety there is to begin with."
Yes, though I would add that it's not just about component versatility. The rules of the RNG have to be carefully crafted and heavily restricted so that any randomly crafted level is still interesting and exciting. Just throwing chaos at a game without restrition results in levels that aren't just uninteresting, they're unplayable. Platforms that appear too far apart to be reached, Exits embedded behind impassable walls, etc. Obviously rules have to be applied that prevent this, but rules also need to be applied that prevent bland level generation.
I think a lot of game devs use RNG to save time and effort, but a properly designed random level generator takes more effort and more time than 10 carefully hand-crafted levels do. Here are 6 different randomly generated mazes: They are all very different both in their style and the solutions to navigate through them. Yet the fact remains they all feel same-y to the player. There is nothing in them that inspires wonder and exploration. Sure, the solution is different for all 6, but the player experience is the same boring trudge they did the first time through. This is not an argument against RNG. I love games with RNG levels. But they'd better have really well-designed generation rules.
Agreed. I think having both is definitely possible. It's true that the economics play a major role it getting it to work right; having the shopkeepers pay such terrible returns on common items means players will only pick up the loot that is useful to them, and not because they want to loot-farm so they can sell it all. I think having loot tables still have logical ties to the mob dropping loot is good, but make them a bit more varied.
IE loot tables for Kobold archer (randomly selected):
After slaying a pack 12 kobolds, I end up with over 200 arrows. I have a party of rangers, but never use that many arrows. The game can supply a useful amount of arrows (and a bow, now and then) without diminishing the special-ness of loot. What I suggest:
The loot still makes sense for the enemy-type, but the enemy type is also low-level. Dropping no loot at all most of the time still makes sense. The same group of 12 kobolds will still yeild about 30 arrows, a bow, a shiny rock, and 2 fire arrows. More exciting (and useful) than 12 bows and 220 arrows. Ok, I'm done ranting about loot. I yield back the remainder of my text. :P
@Danimal: can you explain what you mean about those games being more complex? Story-wise? Graphically? gameplay mechanics? I'm only just becoming familiar with some of the titles. In what way does Divine Divinity let you play the way you want to compared to other RPGs? Very interesting.
@M7600: Yeah, I always thought that made a lot more sense to have loot tables be more specific to what dropped it. Certainly not the only engine that does that, but definitely a plus for Infinity games. Though I wish the drops weren't quite so... consistent? When a kobold archer always drops a shortbow and 10-30 arrows, it creates a weird sort of loot-inflation where those items become nearly worthless to the player. When I play Baldur's gate, the land around High Hedge is constantly littered with halberds; every gnoll drops one, and they aren't even worth picking up. I'd rather they dropped nothing most of the time, but occasionally dropped a low-level weapon and maybe some fungible trinket.
Good idea. I think Screenshots may be a good addition.
What is it you like about each of these games?
Works just fine for me. I was able to edit it without issue using chrome. (see revision history) I did get a warning about 'tags cannot be blank' though, so I added a few just to see if it would work. The tags were (originally?) blank and have since become a required field.
@kmoasd710: See FAQ question "Can I use the art I find here?"
I definitely understand operating a project on a minimal budget. Again, check out the massive asset library. It may already have what you need and it's all free. :) I know you haven't looked through it all yet because it is large enough to take several days of swimming to get across. :P
People around here can even help you find things if you are able to provide more specifics about what you have in mind.
There isn't a specific "Introductions Forum", but that may be by design. Best to just join and dive right in. (If you know of any good FLOSS game assets to share, that'll always make a great first impression :)
Most people just introduce themselves in whatever other forum makes sense with the topic they'd like to talk about: "Hi, I'm Andrea. I like games and I'm looking for tutorials about programming" would be best suited for the Programming forum, for example.
If you're looking for some great free music for your project, obviously browsing the Music Archive is a great place to start.
Each asset submission has a place for comments and questions about that asset, but if you'd like to discuss music in general, the Audio forum is ideal.
If you'd like to talk about your Work-In-Progress project, then the Show Off Your Project forum is the place to visit.
If you're in need of more specific assets, or didn't quite find what you were looking for while browsing our massive asset library, you can always post your needs in the Resource Request forum. You'll probably get more enthusiastic responses if you're able to hire talent (artists gotta eat, right?), but a few artists may be willing to donate their time if it strikes their interests. Though, I wouldn't count on others investing a lot of their free time when they have their own passion projects to work on :/
Although I have seen a lot of talk around the web about the broadly worded legislation allowing for some really crappy overreach, I did find this video that seemed helpful (and from an IP lawyer).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o1tgYc1LB-E
do you have some links to information about COPPA for people who may not be familiar with it?
I like this discussion. :)
Indeed. Same thought all the time. It bugs me so much I usually end up doing in-depth analysis of a game I don't even really enjoy that much. Ugh! Fortunately, I often come to a satisfying conclusion about what parts of the design are bad and how I might go about fixing them in my own games. No idea if my conclusions would actually be effective though. At least not until I publish my games and see how the players feel about them. :/
I agree that being a gamer is more relevant to becoming a good game designer than being a programmer is. Though I'd say there is still a big gap between "gamer who wants to be a game designer" and "actually decent game designer".
I have seen this a lot, but I have played a lot of games where this is definitely a losing strategy. Most of the single-digit Final Fantasies allow you to spec out your entire party as ranged/AoE, but it tends to be a drawback more than an advantage in my opinion. Although DCSS is not a party-based RPG, I challenge you to beat the game as a ranger or AoE mage. Not because the ranged classes are under-powered, but because the game is IMHO properly balanced across multiple play styles. Perhaps that is the key here; If every player can blow through even the toughest enemies with ease using the ranged/AoE party, sure the game is poorly designed. But if some players can, yet others find that strategy undesireable, then I would say the game is well designed; it caters to different play styles in different ways.
You mentioned Might and Magic. Reading advice from other pro gamers on M&M6/7, the conventional wisdom is to avoid playing as druids at all costs; "they're worthless". However, when I tried a party of all druids, they quickly became unbelievably overpowered. Far more so than any other party combination I've heard of. With 4x more mana than health, I was able to do some rediculous things like casting Inferno more than an archer would shoot arrows. (Inferno being rather costly top tier spell) I could clear out entire end-game dungeons without running out of mana. Evil didn't stand a chance. Yes, that does fall into the "ranged damage dealers and AoE fire everyone to death" tactic, but my point is -in this case- it is a path everyone else considered the most difficult. Maybe some of the games are broken, but others are designed to have "different strokes for different folks". :)
Yes. This. It is easy to say "this is a poor design. I would have made it better." Harder to determine how it could be better without breaking some other game mechanic. Harder still to actually implement such an 'improved mechanic' and have your own players like it more than the other game's version of it.
I see this a lot, actually. Sometimes the unlimited chaotic potential of RNG is more fun for the game dev than it is for the player. As Jastiv hints at, no randomly generated content is ever going be better crafted than what a manually designed level can be. On the other hand, even the most amazingly hand-crafted levels are not going to still be exciting and new after the 4th playthrough. Random levels have the potential to be novel and exciting on repeat playthroughs, but they can still get old pretty fast if the RNG is bland.
Yes, though I would add that it's not just about component versatility. The rules of the RNG have to be carefully crafted and heavily restricted so that any randomly crafted level is still interesting and exciting. Just throwing chaos at a game without restrition results in levels that aren't just uninteresting, they're unplayable. Platforms that appear too far apart to be reached, Exits embedded behind impassable walls, etc. Obviously rules have to be applied that prevent this, but rules also need to be applied that prevent bland level generation.
I think a lot of game devs use RNG to save time and effort, but a properly designed random level generator takes more effort and more time than 10 carefully hand-crafted levels do. Here are 6 different randomly generated mazes:
They are all very different both in their style and the solutions to navigate through them. Yet the fact remains they all feel same-y to the player. There is nothing in them that inspires wonder and exploration. Sure, the solution is different for all 6, but the player experience is the same boring trudge they did the first time through. This is not an argument against RNG. I love games with RNG levels. But they'd better have really well-designed generation rules.
Pages